Adobe ain't that expensive comparing to the past, relatively speaking,
but you must use it extensively to see the value. If you just need to
play around PDF files once a year then Acrobat is not for you.

Yeah. So it's a pro market, and that's about it. So I'll have it at work, and that's where they'll make their money.

But things like Photoshop... I'm never going to be in the market for that. Though, at this point, I'd pay more for GIMP just because I'm used to it.

Thankfully it's open source anyway, though I should probably consider sending along money to something, as I've been more inclined to do for the products I end up using.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Which, thankfully, with most of Adobe's products, is easy enough.

I've tried several PDF editors (and paid for them) but I find nothing edits PDF files like acrobat. I use GIMP for photo editing and I don't

Yeah, editing PDFs is a challenging point.

I guess I mostly avoid that, at this point, preferring to keep stuff in other formats and just printing to PDF.

But when I had a scanner, and would want to combine two PDFs, I'm not really sure how I would've done it without Acrobat.

Though, thankfully in that case, the software was not a subscription, so it worked as long as the scanner did.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

On 16 Apr 2023, Adept said the following...

Yeah, editing PDFs is a challenging point.

But when I had a scanner, and would want to combine two PDFs, I'm not really sure how I would've done it without Acrobat.

PDFsam (sam = Split & Merge) is a nice free tool to do that:

https://pdfsam.org/pdfsam-basic/

There is a "Pro" version that does more (stuff I don't need) and of course you can't just buy the pro version, it's a yearly cost.


Jay

... I will stop at nothing to avoid using negative numbers

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/03/14 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Northern Realms (21:3/110)

Warpslide wrote to Adept <=-

PDFsam (sam = Split & Merge) is a nice free tool to do that:

https://pdfsam.org/pdfsam-basic/

Thanks for the pointer. All I really need is when I'm making a mixed
duplex PDFs from my scanner to remove blank pages. This should do the
trick nicely. Page rotation, too.





... Powered By Celeron (Tualatin). Engineered for the future.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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PDFsam (sam = Split & Merge) is a nice free tool to do that:

https://pdfsam.org/pdfsam-basic/

Thanks! Yeah, that does seem to do most all that I'd want.

There is a "Pro" version that does more (stuff I don't need) and of
course you can't just buy the pro version, it's a yearly cost.

$60 to $80 a year (at least at the current prices, which are supposedly discounted) for the comment, forms, secure, and maybe OCR abilities.

Which, yeah, probably not going to be using.

And the subscriptions are mostly annoying because, if I'm paying $5+ a month for PDF software, there are probably 20 other programs where it'd be reasonable to do so. And there's just _so_ many subscriptions to have, at this point.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

I made the switch to linux a few months ago on all of my PC's (except one windows vm to run windows specific software). There are heaps of free software packages that do pretty much the same thing ie. GIMP. I just can't find anything that edits PDFs as well as acrobat.

It doesn't need to be free to be good alternative to photoshop.
In Open source there is of course GIMP, Krita, Inkspace.

But as I'm on Mac I also like Pixelmator very much and it was 50 bucks single payment to or so.. (I don't even remember, but more or less like one Playstation game, no more).

Many Open Source programs come with great functionality but learning curve is not exactly easy to tacle. Photoshop wins often just because people know how to use it. This is the space where software like Pixelmator convinced me more than GIMP and I was willing to have one less game monthly to use it.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Hello poindexter FORTRAN!

Thanks for the pointer. All I really need is when I'm
making a mixed duplex PDFs from my scanner to remove blank
pages. This should do the trick nicely. Page rotation,
too.

To remove, or select specific pages from a specific PDF file, I
just switch to a PDF "printer" such as CutePDF. Then, my OSes
own printer's inteface offers to select specific pages. The
end result is another PDF with the pages I want.

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

Yes, if I recall he said it wiped some files, or changed a bunch of permissions, or something similar, and basically trashed the system it was put on. Of course, that has never happened to a single one of the other 845,212 people who have installed Synchronet, but it must be Synchronet's fault... :-)

Well, there have been over 17k pulls of the docker image(s) I have up for Synchronet... though I need to work out a better upgrade for 3.20 from an earlier version, as I've experienced a few issues. But absolutely won't destroy your host from a container.

https://github.com/bbs-io/sychronet-docker

Also should try a recent nightly to see if it initializes okay still. It's not the cleanest usage, but I prefer to keep nearly everything I use containerized with a docker-compose file to go with it. Far easier backup/restore/migrate... etc.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Tracker1 wrote to Gamgee <=-

esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

Yes, if I recall he said it wiped some files, or changed a bunch of permissions, or something similar, and basically trashed the system it
was put on. Of course, that has never happened to a single one of the other 845,212 people who have installed Synchronet, but it must be Synchronet's fault... :-)

Well, there have been over 17k pulls of the docker image(s) I
have up for Synchronet... though I need to work out a better
upgrade for 3.20 from an earlier version, as I've experienced a
few issues. But absolutely won't destroy your host from a
container.

It (SBBS) absolutely won't destroy your host in any scenario.

https://github.com/bbs-io/sychronet-docker

Also should try a recent nightly to see if it initializes okay
still. It's not the cleanest usage, but I prefer to keep nearly everything I use containerized with a docker-compose file to go
with it. Far easier backup/restore/migrate... etc.

I've never really seen the point of docker. Seems like a lot of extra
work for..... what? Security? I'm on a home LAN and am not worried
about that. As for backups etc... not sure how it could really be
easier than an automated rsync (or similar) every night, to both a LAN
device, and an off-location device. But anyway.... <SHRUG>.



... Enter any 12-digit prime number to continue.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Gamgee to Tracker1 on Mon Apr 17 2023 08:07 pm

I've never really seen the point of docker. Seems like a lot of extra
work for..... what? Security? I'm on a home LAN and am not worried
about that. As for backups etc... not sure how it could really be
easier than an automated rsync (or similar) every night, to both a LAN device, and an off-location device. But anyway.... <SHRUG>.

I am not a docker advocate, but now we are at it:

The advantage of docker is that a developer may create and test an application in a
given environment (with a set of libraries, databases and support components) and then
serve it to a use without caring too much about which environment the user is running
(since the user will run it as if it were a capsule).

Docker images are also stateless, which means you can create and destroy them on
demand if you are running somehting which is very heavy load. For example, if you are
running a heavy game service, you may use an orchestator to launch instances of the
game service on demand according to the number of players you are getting, and then
use a load balancer to spread the load across the nodes. If you have a spike of users,
you auto-deploy game nodes. If users become few, you auto-reduce the number of nodes.


Docker does not help that much with backups in that scenario because docker instances
are supposed to be stateless. You typically have a storage backend for managing persistent data.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Gamgee to Tracker1 on Mon Apr 17 2023 08:07 pm

I've never really seen the point of docker. Seems like a lot of extra
work for..... what? Security? I'm on a home LAN and am not worried
about that. As for backups etc... not sure how it could really be
easier than an automated rsync (or similar) every night, to both a LAN device, and an off-location device. But anyway.... <SHRUG>.

I am not a docker advocate, but now we are at it:

The advantage of docker is that a developer may create and test
an application in a given environment (with a set of libraries,
databases and support components) and thenserve it to a use
without caring too much about which environment the user is
running (since the user will run it as if it were a capsule).

Docker images are also stateless, which means you can create and
destroy them on demand if you are running somehting which is very
heavy load. For example, if you are running a heavy game service,
you may use an orchestator to launch instances of the game
service on demand according to the number of players you are
getting, and then use a load balancer to spread the load across
the nodes. If you have a spike of users,you auto-deploy game
nodes. If users become few, you auto-reduce the number of nodes.

Docker does not help that much with backups in that scenario
because docker instances are supposed to be stateless. You
typically have a storage backend for managing persistent data.

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).



... All the easy problems have been solved.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

To remove, or select specific pages from a specific PDF file, I
just switch to a PDF "printer" such as CutePDF. Then, my OSes
own printer's inteface offers to select specific pages. The
end result is another PDF with the pages I want.

Simple, doesn't require any additional software. Love it.




... Imagine the music as a set of disconnected events
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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Hello poindexter FORTRAN!

Simple, doesn't require any additional software. Love it.

Technically, CutePDF is one piece of additional software (a
printer driver that only prints to PDF format). But it's also
handy when you want to share one's own created documents (such
as invoices) but don't want to send the editable wordprocessing
version.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

Re: PDF Files
By: Ogg to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Apr 18 2023 10:11 pm

Technically, CutePDF is one piece of additional software (a
printer driver that only prints to PDF format). But it's also
handy when you want to share one's own created documents (such
as invoices) but don't want to send the editable wordprocessing
version.

I used to use CutePDF years ago, but now it seems Microsoft has added that as a standard feature in Windows (perhaps in Windows 10?). One of my printer devices is "Microsoft Print to PDF". Also, the web browser I use these days (Vivaldi) has a print destination of "Save as PDF". Microsoft Word can also save to PDF format these days.

Nightfox

Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Hello poindexter FORTRAN!

Simple, doesn't require any additional software. Love it.

Technically, CutePDF is one piece of additional software (a
printer driver that only prints to PDF format). But it's also
handy when you want to share one's own created documents (such
as invoices) but don't want to send the editable wordprocessing
version.

I don't know if it's Windows 10 or Office, but one of them came with a
print to PDF option that I use.

(Aside: I'm going to be taking over my mom's bills and spent the morning cleaning and maintaining my 15 year-old old Samsung laser printer. I
needed to clean the roller that feeds paper from the tray, as it was
pulling double sheets and jamming.

I feel like printers are something that have gotten worse over the
years, so I'm interested in keeping this thing going. PCL support, cheap toners, only 8000 pages on the engine.)



... Do the last thing first
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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Hello Nightfox!

** On Tuesday 18.04.23 - 21:51, Nightfox wrote to Ogg:

I used to use CutePDF years ago, but now it seems Microsoft has added that as a standard feature in Windows (perhaps in Windows 10?). One of my printer devices is "Microsoft Print to PDF". Also, the web browser I use these days (Vivaldi) has a print destination of "Save as PDF". Microsoft Word can also save to PDF format these days.

True. My Word 2007 seems to have output to PDF option. But
those apps were no good of you already had a PDF and just
wanted to build a new PDF file out of an existing one.

I do recall that I needed CutePDF inorder to downscale some
existing PDFs without having to actually print them on paper.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

Hello pF!

(Aside: I'm going to be taking over my mom's bills and
spent the morning cleaning and maintaining my 15 year-old
old Samsung laser printer. I needed to clean the roller
that feeds paper from the tray, as it was pulling double
sheets and jamming.

I feel like printers are something that have gotten worse
over the years, so I'm interested in keeping this thing
going. PCL support, cheap toners, only 8000 pages on the
engine.)

I have a fine HP CP2025d from about 14 years ago. The genuine
OEM toners are not too cheap at about $180 each, or $500 for a
3-colour set. But I get over a year per cartridge. The black
might get used up sooner though.

I tried a set of the "compatibles" one time and they gunked up
the mechanism really bad. So, I'm not ever going back to
those.

A couple of plastic hinge-things are broken, but it doesn't
seem to impede the printing function.

My HP sits on a floor shelf under a counter. I haven't really
cleaned the dust around it for years.

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: fsxnet/2 (21:3/110.10)

Am 18.04.23 schrieb Gamgee@21:2/138 in FSX_GEN:

Hallo Gamgee,

[Docker]

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).

I just have to add that although Docker (and other similar container
systems) is good for developing software, it might not be the best
idea for serving applications "in production".
At least from the standpoint of a systems administrator...

My reason is:
When using "normal" distributions (like Debian/Devuan), all
dependencies are managed by the distributions' package management
system and thus get updated in a central way.

But with containers, you have to rely on the base containers to be on
the latest version (or: on the version without security problems) and
(as sometimes also the container with the application also contains libraries) also the application container.

Regards,
Anna

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Gamgee to Arelor on Tue Apr 18 2023 01:32 pm

Docker does not help that much with backups in that scenario
because docker instances are supposed to be stateless. You
typically have a storage backend for managing persistent data.

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).

I guess if you are a regular user, docker makes less sense. There are lots of desktop specific systems for distributing software in an encapsulated format (snap, flatpak, AppImage) which are better tailored for desktops. Still I am not a fan of them.

I like the OpenBSD approach better. Install everything via ports/packages. If a program needs sandboxing, it can request it itself via the pledge() and unveil() systemcalls.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: PDF Files
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Ogg on Wed Apr 19 2023 08:13 am

I feel like printers are something that have gotten worse over the
years, so I'm interested in keeping this thing going. PCL support, cheap toners, only 8000 pages on the engine.)

I was talking about this with an ex-dev for printer drivers. His answer was: "If you try to take your time to write a good driver the boss will break in yelling development delay is unacceptable, so in the end you write something quick that barely works and go have lunch. I don t get paid enough to take this shit."

--
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--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I have a fine HP CP2025d from about 14 years ago. The genuine
OEM toners are not too cheap at about $180 each, or $500 for a
3-colour set. But I get over a year per cartridge. The black
might get used up sooner though.

Ouch!

I have a nice color inkjet MFP that I use for scan to PDF color paper
and photo printing, and just use the laser for black and white and large
jobs. Toners are around $18, OEM, good for around 1200 pages.

The inkjet was free on the side of the road, a paper jam caused by a highlighter rolling into the exit feed area. What I love about it is the
cheap ink - a set of color tanks (3 colors, one pigment black and one
document black) are around $12 on Amazon, so I don't have to sweat using
the printer like I did when I had a 2 tank inkjet at $50 a pop.




... ZIMA TASTES BETTER WHEN IT'S ILLEGAL
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

acn wrote to Gamgee <=-

[Docker]

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).

I just have to add that although Docker (and other similar
container systems) is good for developing software, it might not
be the best idea for serving applications "in production".
At least from the standpoint of a systems administrator...

My reason is:
When using "normal" distributions (like Debian/Devuan), all
dependencies are managed by the distributions' package management
system and thus get updated in a central way.

But with containers, you have to rely on the base containers to
be on the latest version (or: on the version without security
problems) and (as sometimes also the container with the
application also contains libraries) also the application
container.

Great points, which add emphasis to not being real useful (or worth the effort) for non-developer folks. At least that's how I see it.



... If it's not on fire, it's a software problem.
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Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

Docker does not help that much with backups in that scenario
because docker instances are supposed to be stateless. You
typically have a storage backend for managing persistent data.

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).

I guess if you are a regular user, docker makes less sense. There

It certainly seems that way to me, as a regular user.

are lots of desktop specific systems for distributing software in
an encapsulated format (snap, flatpak, AppImage) which are better
tailored for desktops. Still I am not a fan of them.

I'll admit to knowing about as much about those as I do with Docker
(very little). More things that I've not felt the need to use, for
whatever reason. Maybe the reason is "Slackware". ;-)

I like the OpenBSD approach better. Install everything via
ports/packages. If aprogram needs sandboxing, it can request it
itself via the pledge() and unveil() systemcalls.

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or
FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?



... She sells unix shells by the sea shore.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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highlighter rolling into the exit feed area. What I love about it is the cheap ink - a set of color tanks (3 colors, one pigment black and one document black) are around $12 on Amazon, so I don't have to sweat using the printer like I did when I had a 2 tank inkjet at $50 a pop.

That _does_ seem fairly reasonable.

I went away from ink jets once I realized that my, "print something every month or two" habit led to dried out cartridges and "buy new ink every month or two".

Any idea if ink jets got better on that?

I'm plausibly in the market for a printer, but I print so rarely that I tend to find other options. And I'd get a laser printer, but that it's somewhat hard to justify the space, currently. And then I'd have to figure out which one to get.

Reminds me that I probably do have a greater need for a document scanner, as that helps me get rid of the various paper messes I have.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Hello Adept!

I'm plausibly in the market for a printer, but I print so
rarely that I tend to find other options. And I'd get a
laser printer, but that it's somewhat hard to justify the
space, currently. And then I'd have to figure out which one
to get.

I also have a LaserJet P1005. It roughly occupies only
14"x8"x8" space. I've had it for over 15 years.

https://support.hp.com/ca-en/document/c01174957

I think it was introduced in 2007. Still works great. I print
with it sparingly, and I've only ever replaced the cartridge 3
times.

Reminds me that I probably do have a greater need for a
document scanner, as that helps me get rid of the various
paper messes I have.

There are laser/scanner combos, but then I think you end up
having to buy a colour printer - and the whole thing is much
larger.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

I went away from ink jets once I realized that my, "print something
every month or two" habit led to dried out cartridges and "buy new ink
every month or two".
Any idea if ink jets got better on that?

I have an Epson 'Ecotank' and the issue with 'printing every month or
two'now isn't that the tanks dry out, it's that you have to do a pretty rigorous head cleaning to get it to print correctly after disuse, and that
head cleaning uses a lot of ink. The solution that I have come up with is to print a colorful 'test page' every few weeks to keep things running smoothly.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

On 20 Apr 2023 at 08:16p, Gamgee pondered and said...

Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

I like the OpenBSD approach better. Install everything via ports/packages. If aprogram needs sandboxing, it can request it itself via the pledge() and unveil() systemcalls.

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other one easy/similar?

I think it depends very much on what you want to do with
the system. OpenBSD is a lot closer to the "old school"
BSD experience, a la 4.3 or SunOS 4. It makes a reasonable
server or firewall. But if you're used to a more canned
experience, it may be frustrating out of the box (in that
sense, it's probably closer to, say, Arch Linux than to
Mint). Software in ports on OpenBSD tends to lag behind
released versions by a good bit.

On the other hand, FreeBSD also makes a fine server, but
tends more toward the modern than OpenBSD; it's not too
terribly hard to set it up as a workstation, I suspect.

I've run both for many years; on edge devices and things
exposed to the Internet I tend to run OpenBSD. I run a
FreeBSD server for kicks. I use neither as a workstation
anymore.

So...what do you want to do with it?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I went away from ink jets once I realized that my, "print something
every month or two" habit led to dried out cartridges and "buy new ink every month or two".

Any idea if ink jets got better on that?

I do most of my printing on my laser, and use the inkjet only
occasionally. I don't run into issues where I find myself out of
ink after not using it. I wonder if the reason is it's one of those
printers that has separate tanks for each color (and *two* black tanks,
one for pictures and one for prints).

The other nice thing is that you can replace tanks one by one. On more
than one occasion I've run out of one color and been able to replace
that one tank instead of throwing out an otherwise full tank.

I'm plausibly in the market for a printer, but I print so rarely that I tend to find other options. And I'd get a laser printer, but that it's somewhat hard to justify the space, currently. And then I'd have to
figure out which one to get.

Reminds me that I probably do have a greater need for a document
scanner, as that helps me get rid of the various paper messes I have.

I went through a divorce, and a cheap Canon inkjet MFP with a document
feeder saved me from keeping and dealing with reams of paperwork.

At the same time, I changed my job from working at a single site to
managing several sites. I got rid of my desk, started hoteling, and
scanned all of my paperwork to PDFs so I could take it along with me.
Once you get in the habit, it's nice having everything oline and
searchable.





... What's behind this door? What door?
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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Gamgee wrote to Arelor <=-

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?

I'd start with FreeBSD first, then work your way to NetBSD if you want
wider hardware support and OpenBSD if you want to DIY.

My admittedly 50,000 foot take on the current state of BSD is that
FreeBSD and derivatives remind me of the convenience of
Debian/Ubuntu/Mint, whereas NetBSD and OpenBSD are reminiscent of Arch
and Slackware Linux, where you can tweak the system exactly how you like
at the trade-off of more manual configuration being needed.

I'm no BSD slouch, but haven't done more than play with it in 20-someodd
years. I started running SunOS on old Sun hardware and BSD/OS on Intel
back in the '90s, and ran a couple of high-traffic sites on BSDs.

Personally, I'd love to find some old obscure hardware that NetBSD
supports and run it on my desktop. Fire up Mutt and Lynx and ditch the
web for a while. I'm more of a text guy by nature.

As for what platforms are supported by NetBSD, see below. This is in
addition to the standard Sparc64, AMD64, x86, and assorted mainstream architectures.

Port CPU Machines
acorn32 arm Acorn RiscPC/A7000/NC and compatibles
algor mips Algorithmics MIPS evaluation boards
alpha alpha Digital Alpha (64-bit)
amiga m68k Commodore Amiga, MacroSystem DraCo
amigappc powerpc PowerPC-based Amiga boards
arc mips Machines following the Advanced RISC Computing spec
atari m68k Atari TT030, Falcon, Hades
bebox powerpc Be Inc's BeBox
cats arm Chalice Technology's Strong Arm evaluation board
cesfic m68k CES's FIC8234 VME processor board
cobalt mips Cobalt Networks' Microservers
dreamcast sh3 Sega Dreamcast game console
epoc32 arm 32bit PSION EPOC PDA
emips mips Machines based on "Extensible MIPS"
evbsh3 sh3 Evaluation boards with Renesas (Hitachi) Super-H SH3 and
SH4 CPUs
ews4800mips mips NEC's MIPS based EWS4800 workstations
hp300 m68k Hewlett-Packard 9000/300 and 400 series
hppa hppa Hewlett-Packard 9000/700 series
hpcmips mips MIPS based Windows CE PDA machines
hpcsh sh3 Renesas (Hitachi) SH3 and SH4 based Windows CE PDA
machines
ia64 itanium Itanium family of processors none
ibmnws powerpc IBM Network Station Series 1000
iyonix arm Iyonix ARM pc
landisk sh3 SH4 based NAS appliances by I-O DATA
luna68k m68k OMRON Tateisi Electronics' LUNA series
mac68k m68k Apple Macintosh
macppc powerpc Apple Power Macintosh and clones
mipsco mips Mips family of workstations and servers
mmeye sh3 Brains' mmEye Multi Media Server
mvme68k m68k Motorola MVME 68k SBCs
mvmeppc powerpc Motorola MVME PowerPC SBCs
netwinder arm StrongARM based NetWinder machines
news68k m68k Sony's m68k based "NET WORK STATION" series
newsmips mips Sony's MIPS based "NET WORK STATION" series
next68k m68k NeXT 68k 'black' hardware
ofppc powerpc Generic OpenFirmware compliant PowerPC machines
pmax mips Digital MIPS-based DECstations and DECsystems
prep powerpc PReP (PowerPC Reference Platform) and CHRP machines
riscv riscv RISC-V none
rs6000 powerpc MCA-based IBM RS/6000 workstations
sandpoint powerpc Motorola Sandpoint reference platform
sbmips mips Broadcom SiByte evaluation boards
sgimips mips Silicon Graphics' MIPS-based workstations
shark arm Digital DNARD ("shark")
sparc sparc Sun SPARC (32-bit)
sun2 m68k Sun 2
sun3 m68k Sun 3 and 3x
vax vax Digital VAX
x68k m68k Sharp X680x0 series
zaurus arm Sharp C7x0/C860/C1000/C3x00 series PDA




... YORGAMAK HAS ARRIVED AND WILL INITIATE DESTRUCTIMATION.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

tenser wrote to Gamgee <=-

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?

I think it depends very much on what you want to do with
the system. OpenBSD is a lot closer to the "old school"
BSD experience, a la 4.3 or SunOS 4. It makes a reasonable
server or firewall. But if you're used to a more canned
experience, it may be frustrating out of the box (in that
sense, it's probably closer to, say, Arch Linux than to
Mint). Software in ports on OpenBSD tends to lag behind
released versions by a good bit.

On the other hand, FreeBSD also makes a fine server, but
tends more toward the modern than OpenBSD; it's not too
terribly hard to set it up as a workstation, I suspect.

I've run both for many years; on edge devices and things
exposed to the Internet I tend to run OpenBSD. I run a
FreeBSD server for kicks. I use neither as a workstation
anymore.

So...what do you want to do with it?

Thank you for that excellent description of the differences. At this
point I don't really have anything in mind regarding what to do with
it... other than just getting it running and becoming familiar with it. Perhaps a "homelab server" which would be not much more than a file
storage repository. I currently use Slackware Linux pretty much
exclusively, other than a couple of RPi's running Raspbian. Mostly this
would be a learning/experiment/for-fun thing. Thanks again for the
info.



... Want to meet new people? Pick up the wrong golf ball.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?

I'd start with FreeBSD first, then work your way to NetBSD if you
want wider hardware support and OpenBSD if you want to DIY.

My admittedly 50,000 foot take on the current state of BSD is
that FreeBSD and derivatives remind me of the convenience of Debian/Ubuntu/Mint, whereas NetBSD and OpenBSD are reminiscent of
Arch and Slackware Linux, where you can tweak the system exactly
how you like at the trade-off of more manual configuration being
needed.

Okay, thanks for that info, it's quite helpful. I use mostly Slackware
Linux now, so those analogies make some sense to me.

<SNIP>

As for what platforms are supported by NetBSD, see below. This is
in addition to the standard Sparc64, AMD64, x86, and assorted
mainstream architectures.

<SNIP>

Wow, quite an impressive list of supported architectures! I'd probably
only be trying it on x86 stuff. Appreciate the reply!



... Then, suddenly and embarrassingly, my swash came unbuckled.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
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On 21 Apr 2023 at 11:07a, Gamgee pondered and said...

Thank you for that excellent description of the differences. At this point I don't really have anything in mind regarding what to do with it... other than just getting it running and becoming familiar with it. Perhaps a "homelab server" which would be not much more than a file storage repository. I currently use Slackware Linux pretty much exclusively, other than a couple of RPi's running Raspbian. Mostly this would be a learning/experiment/for-fun thing. Thanks again for the
info.

I think I'd probably start with FreeBSD and then give OpenBSD
a whirl if the fancy strikes you.

At the end of the day, both are kind of Just Another Unix, so
either will be pretty familiar.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

I have a fine HP CP2025d from about 14 years ago. The genuine
OEM toners are not too cheap at about $180 each, or $500 for a
3-colour set. But I get over a year per cartridge. The black
might get used up sooner though.

Ouch!

That's CDN dollars, btw.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Gamgee to Arelor on Thu Apr 20 2023 08:16 pm

I like the OpenBSD approach better. Install everything via ports/packages. If aprogram needs sandboxing, it can request it
itself via the pledge() and unveil() systemcalls.

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?

Slackware is very BSDish, so any of the three big BSD should be easy to pick up.

Each mayor BSD is a different Operating System and they are not that similar. They are pretty much the same on the surface - the classical Linux utilities like tar, awk, sed etc. have their BSD counterparts, but then kernel capabilities and OS administration differ. Firewall utilities are different. Package management is different. MAC/sandboxing (for the BSD that support such things) are different. If you are used to a BSD and suddenly need to administrate another, the differences won't shock you but you will totally have to relearn some of the tools.

As for which BSD to try first, it depends on what you want. OpenBSD is developed by IT nerds for their own use, and non-devs get to enjoy the ride if it happens to suit their needs. What this means is OpenBSD has very clean implementations for the things it does but it lacks some features you'd take for granted everywhere else because the devs don't give a damn. ie. if the devs don't like blutooth as a protocol then you will never ever use your blutooth speakers on OpenBSD. In exchange, you get a very tightly developped set of userland utilities.

OpenBSD is the OS I would pick for a small home server, because OpenBSD maintains its own http daemon with very tight privilege separation and sandboxing. They also develop their own SMTPD in-house and same advantages apply. Firewalling is also developped in-house. OpenBSD's utilities and services have just enough features to serve medium sized deployments while featuring non-bullshit configuration processes - administration is very Slackware-like.

FreeBSD is more of a corporate product so the kernel has more features and it is a bit more Linux compatible. You may expect better performance, a modern filesystem with COW support, and better vendor support. FreeBSD is not as tight when it comes to default process isolation and their MAC framework requires some work to understand (think SELinux).

I personally use OpenBSD mostly everywhere because its system layout feels more sane, but that means that I often need some feature that is not supported and end up having to build it in myself. FreeBSD is more likely to support a random feature or a given package you may one day discover you need.

NetBSD deserves special metion because it is developped very aggressively but to a fine quality standard. Dragonfly is a small project but it is known for their HAMMER filesystem and its advanced multithreading. I have never used Dragon and my experience with Net is not meaningful.

Which to pick for testing is a matter of choice. FreeBSD feels much more production ready. OpenBSD feels like the product of a bunch of hardcore Unix advocates building the sort of modern Unix-like they want to run at home.

The fun part with OpenSource is exploring the options, I guess XD



--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Gamgee on Fri Apr 21 2023 08:02 am

Debian/Ubuntu/Mint, whereas NetBSD and OpenBSD are reminiscent of Arch
and Slackware Linux, where you can tweak the system exactly how you like
at the trade-off of more manual configuration being needed.

I don't know about NetBSD, but one of OpenBSD's objectives is to have defaults good enough that no tweaking is necessary at a low level. Which means they strive to have services you can install and forget. For example, the default httpd launches chrooted and with privilege separation and sandboxing enabled by default, and the only thing you are expected to do is to configure your domains and TLS certs and such. You can break out of the defaults if needed, but if you have to do it is considered a bit of a failure on their part.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

BY: Thom Miller (21:2/145)

|11TM|09> |10I have an Epson 'Ecotank' and the issue with 'printing every month or|07
|11TM|09> |10two'now isn't that the tanks dry out, it's that you have to do a pretty|07
|11TM|09> |10rigorous head cleaning to get it to print correctly after disuse, and|07
|11TM|09> |10that|07
|11TM|09> |10head cleaning uses a lot of ink. The solution that I have come up with|07
Ecotank is fustrating me. Im thinking about eating up my ink bottles and just giving up on the machine.


--- WWIV 5.8.0.3681[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

Ecotank is fustrating me. Im thinking about eating
up my ink bottles and just giving up on the machine.

We really haven't had that many problems with ours, once I figured out that I need to just print something every few weeks to keep it happy. We also picked up some cheap (read: non-EPSON) bottles of ink off Amazon, which work well
with it and reduce the cost.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

Reminds me that I probably do have a greater need for a
document scanner, as that helps me get rid of the various
paper messes I have.

There are laser/scanner combos, but then I think you end up
having to buy a colour printer - and the whole thing is much
larger.

Yeah, and what I want is a document scanner, and the laser/scanner combos tend to be flatbed scanners.

Which are probably better quality, but I want to be able to get through a pile of documents quickly, because that's the only way it's getting done.

Thanks for the printer recommendation, regardless. I had previously used a Brother laser printer, and liked it. But I suppose the open question is what's good quality _now_ for printers, rather than who made good printers 15+ years ago.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

BY: Abbub (21:2/145)

|11A|09> |10We really haven't had that many problems with ours, once I figured out|07
|11A|09> |10that I|07
|11A|09> |10need to just print something every few weeks to keep it happy. We also|07
|11A|09> |10picked|07
|11A|09> |10up some cheap (read: non-EPSON) bottles of ink off Amazon, which work|07
|11A|09> |10well with it and reduce the cost.|07
And I should not have to Power Clean it quarterly for it to work well.


--- WWIV 5.8.0.3681[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?

Slackware is very BSDish, so any of the three big BSD should be
easy to pick up.

Each mayor BSD is a different Operating System and they are not
that similar. They are pretty much the same on the surface - the
classical Linux utilities like tar, awk, sed etc. have their BSD counterparts, but then kernel capabilities and OS administration
differ. Firewall utilities are different. Package management is
different. MAC/sandboxing (for the BSD that support such things)
are different. If you are used to a BSD and suddenly need to
administrate another, the differences won't shock you but you
will totally haveto relearn some of the tools.

As for which BSD to try first, it depends on what you want.
OpenBSD is developed by IT nerds for their own use, and non-devs
get to enjoy the ride if it happens to suit their needs. What
this means is OpenBSD has very clean implementations for the
things it does but it lacks some features you'd take for granted everywhere else because the devs don't give a damn. ie. if the
devsdon't like blutooth as a protocol then you will never ever
use your blutooth speakers on OpenBSD. In exchange, you get a
very tightly developped set of userland utilities.

OpenBSD is the OS I would pick for a small home server, because
OpenBSD maintains its own http daemon with very tight privilege
separation and sandboxing. They also develop their own SMTPD
in-house and same advantages apply. Firewalling is also
developped in-house. OpenBSD's utilities and services have just
enough features to serve medium sized deployments while featuring non-bullshit configuration processes - administration is very Slackware-like.

FreeBSD is more of a corporate product so the kernel has more
features and it is a bit more Linux compatible. You may expect
better performance, a modern filesystem with COW support, and
better vendor support. FreeBSD is not as tightwhen it comes to
default process isolation and their MAC framework requires some
work to understand (think SELinux).

I personally use OpenBSD mostly everywhere because its system
layout feels moresane, but that means that I often need some
feature that is not supported and end up having to build it in
myself. FreeBSD is more likely to support a randomfeature or a
given package you may one day discover you need.

NetBSD deserves special metion because it is developped very
aggressively but to a fine quality standard. Dragonfly is a small
project but it is known for their HAMMER filesystem and its
advanced multithreading. I have never used Dragon and my
experience with Net is not meaningful.

Which to pick for testing is a matter of choice. FreeBSD feels
much more production ready. OpenBSD feels like the product of a
bunch of hardcore Unix advocates building the sort of modern
Unix-like they want to run at home.

The fun part with OpenSource is exploring the options, I guess XD

Fantastic information and comparison. Thanks for taking the time for
such a long and detailed reply, I appreciate it!

I think my first dip in the BSD waters will be with Free...



... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

I would suggest FreeBSD. OpenBSD is nice, but I prefer the original. I am considering moving the WHQ BBS to FreeBSD, but I would have to enable
compiling on that platform. Right now, I just compile Linux/64 while developing.

-Nugax (cbbs)


--- CyberBBS v1.0.11 2023/04/12 [Debian Linux/x64]
* Origin: CyberBBS WHQ BBS | Telnet: whq.cyberbbs.dev:6023 (21:1/167)

nugax wrote to Gamgee <=-

I would suggest FreeBSD. OpenBSD is nice, but I prefer the
original. I am considering moving the WHQ BBS to FreeBSD, but I
would have to enable compiling on that platform. Right now, I
just compile Linux/64 while developing.

Thanks, I'm likely going to go that route (FreeBSD).



... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

On 22 Apr 2023 at 07:23a, Arelor pondered and said...

[snip]
They are pretty much the same on the surface - the classical
Linux utilities like tar, awk, sed etc. have their BSD counterparts, but then kernel capabilities and OS administration differ. Firewall

Ooophf; point of order: those aren't classical "Linux" utilities,
they're classical _Unix_ utilities. Most Linux distros get the
userland tools from GNU, whereas BSD inherited them from Unix and
each project maintains its own userspace.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Well, there have been over 17k pulls of the docker image(s)

Wow. that's impressive number. Is there a stat how many active synchronet BBS instances are up and running these days?

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Re: RE: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: nugax to Gamgee on Sun Apr 23 2023 06:53 am

I would suggest FreeBSD. OpenBSD is nice, but I prefer the original. I am considering moving the WHQ BBS to FreeBSD, but I would have to enable compiling on that platform. Right now, I just compile Linux/64 while developing.

-Nugax (cbbs)

--- CyberBBS v1.0.11 2023/04/12 [Debian Linux/x64]
* Origin: CyberBBS WHQ BBS | Telnet: whq.cyberbbs.dev:6023 (21:1/167)

Afaik FreeBSD is not the original.

NetBSD has an initial release date set at 19 April 1993, whereas Freebsd has it on 1 November 1993.

NetBSD was derived from 386BSD just the same as FreeBSD. OpenBSD is a fork of NetBSD. If anything, the o"original" the big *BSDs are branched from is 386BSD.

More info in this diagram:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Unix_history-simple.s vg/1962px-Unix_history-simple.svg.png

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: tenser to Arelor on Mon Apr 24 2023 07:23 am

Ooophf; point of order: those aren't classical "Linux" utilities,
they're classical _Unix_ utilities. Most Linux distros get the
userland tools from GNU, whereas BSD inherited them from Unix and
each project maintains its own userspace.

I think I have expressed myself quite badly there. What I meant is that core utilities Linux users take for granted have their BSD versions (and if you check the source code, often predate Linux by a mile).


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

On 23 Apr 2023 at 06:05p, Arelor pondered and said...

Afaik FreeBSD is not the original.

NetBSD has an initial release date set at 19 April 1993, whereas Freebsd has it on 1 November 1993.

NetBSD was derived from 386BSD just the same as FreeBSD. OpenBSD is a
fork of NetBSD. If anything, the o"original" the big *BSDs are branched from is 386BSD.

This is correct: Bill and Lynne Jolitz ported the "Net/2"
distribution of BSD from UC Berkeley to the 386, famously
writing a series of articles about it in Dr Dobbs Journal;
the series was later collected into a book. The result was
386BSD.

However, the Jolitz's were a bit, um, "challenging" to deal
with and progress on, say, necessary bug fixes, supporting
new hardware, etc, was all slow, and unofficial patchsets
were floating around on the net. Eventually, these were
collected and distributed as part of NetBSD. FreeBSD was
an independent effort along the same lines.

Of the two, FreeBSD concentrated on excellent support for
the PC platform, while NetBSD was more concerned about
portability; for a while in the 90s, if you had a reasonable
computer of almost any description, it was likely there was
a NetBSD port for it.


OpenBSD was a fork of NetBSD, created after Theo de Raadt
was kicked off the NetBSD core team and his access to the
NetBSD source repository suspended. The details there
are not terribly interesting; suffice it to say that he
has a tendency to behave badly. OpenBSD claims to favor
security and correctness over all else, but honestly, I'm
not really sure that's _actually_ true, but that's their
main selling point.

Dragonfly is the other main BSD fork; it derives from
FreeBSD. Matt Dillon, the principle author, forked it from
the FreeBSD 4.x series, as he disagreed with the direction
they wanted to take for SMP implementation in FreeBSD 5 and
beyond: all of the BSDs were original single-processor only
(indeed, same with Unix; multiprocessor systems were not
terribly common in the era it was written and on the types
of computers it was written for: minicomputers). As time
moved all, all of them realized that multicore was going to
be a critical, particularly with the end of Denard scaling,
so set out to modify their systems to support SMP (symmetric
multiprocessing). Suffice it to say that retrofitting that
onto an existing operating system that wasn't designed to
support it from the start is challenging; lots of code was
written making lots of assumptions about things that it
presumes can't happen when there's only one CPU, but that
very much can, and do, happen when there are multiple.

Anyway, there are several ways to do this, and in particular
to expose it to userspace programs. The most common is a
1:1 thread model, where a single user-space thread corresponds
to a single thread of execution in the operating system kernel.
This is far and away the most common. The second most common
is to use what are called "Green Threads", or N:1, in which many
userspace threads are multiplexed onto a single kernel thread;
the problem with this is that, if a user-thread initiates some
blocking operation (say, opening a file), this blocks all
threads. Finally, the least common is N:M, where N userspace
threads are muxed onto M kernel threads, and M != N, usually.
This was a hot area of research in the late 90s, and this is
what FreeBSD tried to do in FreeBSD 5. Dillon thought this was
too complex and would yield poor performance, and so forked
DragonFly to explore a different model. He has since pivoted
to working on advanced filesystems, with HAMMER and now HAMMER2.

Incidentally, he was right: after a long struggle, the FreeBSD
people _did_ implement their N:M threading model, but it wasn't
a good match for real-world applications, and was very complex.
Eventually, they deprecated it and went with the 1:1 model. I
suspect some support is still in there, but practically no one
uses it.

As noted, all of these descend from the original BSD work
done at UC Berkeley, which had a long history of Unix
involvement, starting with the 5th Research Edition in
1974. Ken Thompson had gone to Berkeley, and took a Unix
tape with him when he went on sabbatical there in '74.
This, all of the modern BSDs descend from Net/2.

Net/2 was interesting: it was an _almost_ complete Unix
distribution, just with some small proprietary parts removed.
This was the culmination of a large body of work spearheaded
by Keith Bostic, to create a freely available BSD under a
permissive license. It was very close in interface and
usage to the final 4.4 releases, which in turn, were mostly
POSIX compatible; the various 4.3 and earlier releases were
not. A company spun out of Berkeley, BSDi, around the time
of that release to market a commercial version of BSD called
"BSD/OS". Famously, their phone number was "1-800-ITS-UNIX".
This led to a lawsuit where AT&T sued both BSDi and UC
Berkeley, and Berkeley counter-sued AT&T, over copyright and
trade secret infringement: AT&T had been legally barred from
competing in the computer industry as long as they held their
regulated monopoly status over the telephone system. However,
shortly before all this went down they'd split themselves
up and thus been released from the consent decree that so
barred them: they intended to enter the industry marketing
Unix (they did, but were largely unsuccessful). This lead to
a period of FUD over the future of BSD-derived systems, which
gave the new Linux upstart a chance to get a foothold in the
industry.

Linux, on the other hand, was a complete reimplementation
from scratch. Linus Torvalds wanted something that took
better advantage of his hardware than Minix, the teaching
system by Andy Tannenbaum that he had been running. Linux
took a far more traditional approach to building a Unix-like
system, in that it's a monolithic kernel (the kernel exists
in a single address space), while Minix is a microkernel
(services are logically distinct and isolated from one
another, and communicate via message-passing). Famously,
Tannenbaum took Torvalds to task for this decision, declaring
Linux obsolete before it was finished. Of course, it is now,
by far, the most popular and important operating system in
the world.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 23 Apr 2023 at 06:10p, Arelor pondered and said...

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: tenser to Arelor on Mon Apr 24 2023 07:23 am

Ooophf; point of order: those aren't classical "Linux" utilities, they're classical _Unix_ utilities. Most Linux distros get the userland tools from GNU, whereas BSD inherited them from Unix and
each project maintains its own userspace.

I think I have expressed myself quite badly there. What I meant is that core utilities Linux users take for granted have their BSD versions (and if you check the source code, often predate Linux by a mile).

No worries; I get what you're saying.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Arelor wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I don't know about NetBSD, but one of OpenBSD's objectives is to have defaults good enough that no tweaking is necessary at a low level.
Which means they strive to have services you can install and forget.
For example, the default httpd launches chrooted and with privilege separation and sandboxing enabled by default, and the only thing you
are expected to do is to configure your domains and TLS certs and such. You can break out of the defaults if needed, but if you have to do it
is considered a bit of a failure on their part.

That's good to know - OpenBSD always has a security focus to it.



... HACK THE PLANET!
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Hello Adept!

** On Saturday 22.04.23 - 20:40, Adept wrote to Ogg:

Thanks for the printer recommendation, regardless. I had
previously used a Brother laser printer, and liked it. But
I suppose the open question is what's good quality _now_
for printers, rather than who made good printers 15+ years
ago.

It's pretty easy these days with people leaving reviews.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

It's pretty easy these days with people leaving reviews.

Yeah, though sometimes reviews wind up being, "And my printer failed immediately!". But when I look at a variety of printers, that's a review that most all of them have. So it's a matter of comparison, and if there's only 10 reviews, or I'm in the wrong place, or whatever...

But, really, I'm over complicating it. Certainly, there are technical review sites that'd lead me to the right place anyway, and in Germany I have no doubt that there are ratings somewhere telling me about the highest-rated printers for a given need.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Java is excellent at what it does, and is still an industry leader in a lot of places. JavaScript isn't really a competitor or anything, the intended use case and problems it addresses are completely different. But yeah, it's always seemed screwy to me that they chose to use the name "javascript"...alas...

Well, Node.js is pretty popular, even beyond FrontEnd tooling. I've used it and Deno quite a bit. It's used a lot with Apollo as a GraphQL server as well as with socketio for rtc stuff. It's a first class option for AWS Lambda and many similar FaaS runtimes and services.

As to the name, it was a marketting gimick that came from Netscape wanting to piggyback on the popularity of Java at the time. IIRC, the original name was supposed to be LiveScript, not to be confused with a more recent language using that name.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

My othernet hub, back in the day, ran 10 DOS nodes running Remote
Access. He needed another node for a file server, some DOS-level networking that wasn't LANTastic, and a room full of beige desktops running on baker's racks with cabling everywhere. It was a pretty
amazing sight to see back then.

I remember setting up a couple of computers using coax ethernet (10-base-T iirc) and not knowing anything at the time... using a copy of NT4 Server from a zip disk without a lot of the extras. We had a computer, but not an extra HD for one of the nodes, so managed to get everything needed for basic boot on a floppy. Using a parallel zip drive for main storage on one of the nodes. It was interresting learning about TCP/IP configuration in DOS at the time (late 1996).

Coax because the cards, cables etc were dirt cheap and didn't have a lot of money back then (working two jobs) until I managed to get a paying job doing helpdesk support and shifted web development. Was definitely a relatively fun time in my life.

As to what we ran, it was Renegade (of course), remember having to use a hex editor on the .OVR file every single release to get many of the display mods working. By contrast, SynchroNet is way, way more flexible out of the box, even if the JS environment is a bit dated and very different than where CommonJS and now EcmaScript Modules landed.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Yeah, at the time, Synchronet probably would have cost a bit much for me too (I was 14 years old when I started my first BBS). Also, somehow I wasn't aware of Synchronet at the time either. I don't remember seeeing any Synchronet BBSes in my area in the 90s.

Similar boat here, even if I was a couple years older (born in '74). There were about 4-5 Synchronet boards in the Phoenix area, mostly 2-8 line BBSes, seemed to be the option most were running for multiline. There were a handful of MajorBBS boards as well, 2 smaller (6 line) and a couple really big 24-50 lines (rock garden and flatlands iirc).


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

There was a crack and 250-node key combo that was created and released (for sbbs v2) at some point too. I think I have it available for download on Vertrauen. It turns out roll-your-own-copy-protection is probably not the best idea I've ever had. :-)

I find the fact that you have a crack for your own software on your BBS infinitely amusing (to say the least). :-)


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Maybe you're thinking of Mustang Software, the company that made
Wildcat?

Right - Wildcat! was also a cool one; if the sysop/bbS used it/modified it in a good way... I guess nothings changed in 30+ years. :P

It's really funny, I remember when I first started playing with RIPTerm... and the first Wildcat board I saw had a pretty good UI for RIP... then after calling around and realizing that every, single, wildcat board looked exactly the same, I just stopped altogether. There were so many in 602 back then... mostly hung out on the Renegade/Telegard boards (1993-1997).


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

I figured (but don't really know) that Python found various niches, so expanded in popularity, whereas Java found those things much earlier.

Python started out as a language designed for teaching programming. It in turn got used a lot in higher education, and eventually grew from there. At least this is my understanding.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

I'm surprised Microsoft hasn't moved Windows to a subscription model yet.

Someone else probably already chimed in, but they really have. If you're even a mid sized company, you're probably on an annual licensing/support model. Very similar to how Office365 pretty much took over in the business space for the licensing.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Software-as-a-Service needs to die in a fire for the most part. I don't mind it when there's a legitimate reason why you'd expect a recurring cost (like cloud storage, for instance), but 90% don't have a legitimate reason, and 50% of the remaining 10% seem to have shoehorned that reason in (like implementing cloud storage when it's completely unnecessary).

It's definitely abused... but there are some legit reasons to go to the rental model for software companies, even if they aren't making more money that way.
It reduces support costs by keeping an "always current" model, so you don't have to support many vastly different versions in the wild. I worked at a small company in the late 90's that dealt with a lot of govt agencies and literally had dozens of versions in the wild, and the upgrades were painful and often manual to work through. With always online, always current, you don't have to deal with those kinds of overhead.

The other thing it does is normalize revenue, in that it becomes much more predictable which can really help when budgetting costs, paying employees, etc. When you have a recurring/upgrade model, then you may get a bunch of orders at release, but won't always know when the next surge is. When you're paying out millions a year in payroll, having a reliable more consistent income stream makes it much easier to know where you even can land in terms of headcount and expenses.

This last point also works from the other side, as a mid-large business, it's far easier to normalize software expenses than it is to plan staged upgrade cycles or dealing with internal staff that demands/needs the new version every year and a half.

It sucks as an individual, but individuals aren't the bulk of the income for commercial software, it's generally business licensees and the subscription model tends to work better for them and the software companies.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Tracker1 to Digital Man on Tue Apr 25 2023 06:16 pm

There was a crack and 250-node key combo that was created and released (for sbbs v2) at some point too. I think I have it available for download on Vertrauen. It turns out roll-your-own-copy-protection is probably not the best idea I've ever had. :-)

I find the fact that you have a crack for your own software on your BBS infinitely amusing (to say the least). :-)

I'd up-vote this message, but alas, FTN doesn't support that. :-)

That crack was interesting/fun for me to dissect. At least, from what I observed, Synchronet v2 wasn't trivial to crack. And I think I'd already made SBBS public domain by the time I'd seen that crack, so I wasn't miffed about it at all.
--
digital man (rob)

This Is Spinal Tap quote #5:
Nigel Tufnel: Authorities said... best leave it... unsolved.
Norco, CA WX: 62.2°F, 76.0% humidity, 4 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

I made the switch to linux a few months ago on all of my PC's (except one windows vm to run windows specific software). There are heaps of free software packages that do pretty much the same thing ie. GIMP. I just can't find anything that edits PDFs as well as acrobat.

Running Linux mostly myself... though don't use Acrobat for editing PDFs, I really can't stand GIMP. It just isn't great, it's too hard for the easy stuff and not feature rich enough for the pro stuff.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Tracker1 to Adept on Tue Apr 25 2023 06:20 pm

Python started out as a language designed for teaching programming. It in turn got used a lot in higher education, and eventually grew from there. At least this is my understanding.

Maybe you're thinking of Pascal?
--
digital man (rob)

Rush quote #3:
The men who hold high places must be the ones who start... Closer to the Heart Norco, CA WX: 62.2°F, 76.0% humidity, 4 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Adept wrote to Ogg <=-

It's pretty easy these days with people leaving reviews.

Yeah, though sometimes reviews wind up being, "And my printer failed immediately!". But when I look at a variety of printers, that's a
review that most all of them have. So it's a matter of comparison, and
if there's only 10 reviews, or I'm in the wrong place, or whatever...

There are so many fake reviews out there that I lop off the top and
bottom of the reviews and look at the middle.

Yelp got in trouble for shaking companies down to filter down negative
reviews. After looking at a negative review, clicking through to the
author and seeing dozens of almost identically-worded reviews,

At least with Amazon, I don't think you can write a review if you
haven't bought the thing.




... Reward for a job well done: More work
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

I'm surprised Microsoft hasn't moved Windows to a subscription model
yet.

They would love to!

Yeah, but they get a cut of the sales cost of EVERY FRAKKING PC SOLD. That'll keep them happy.

That's a big part of why, since Windows 7, updates to new versions have been "free". Corporate users are on an annual license and most PC sales include Windows. Too many users were sticking to older versions which cost MS more to support than just providing "free" upgrades to existing non-corporate users.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

I've never really seen the point of docker. Seems like a lot of extra work for..... what? Security? I'm on a home LAN and am not worried
about that. As for backups etc... not sure how it could really be
easier than an automated rsync (or similar) every night, to both a LAN device, and an off-location device. But anyway.... <SHRUG>.

All around, just easier to deal with in terms of automation and different software on a given system with less overhead than full VMs. The software is packaged with all its dependencies. This generally means if a given version of Library X works with software A, but software B requires a different version, you get a gold copy of each software with what *it* needs.

The reasons to do so are very similar to why you might run separate VMs for different software installs, without the overhead of full VMs and a few other benefits as well. Such as compose, swarm, k8s and other options that let you run not just a given software, but related softwares as well. If you run something that requires a database service, redis cache, traefik proxy, etc... you can have this all defined in a single stack that will stand up and communicate with the other services appropriately.

Backup is roughly the same, except you don't really need to trapse around for config files over hear, other options there, and data somewhere else. It's in one root. Of course with synchronet, this generally also means your executables are there too, which is one thing you don't typically want with a Docker image as the image is meant to contain the executables, and all the data/storage is in volume mounts that are separate.

Upgrading is generally just run the new version against the same data volumes and it transparently upgrades and is now running the new version against your existing data, no muss, no fuss.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).

As a "normal user" you don't run what the developer creates? Would you rather have a 5-page guide on installing something, or 1-3 lines you can run on the command line?


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

But with containers, you have to rely on the base containers to be on
the latest version (or: on the version without security problems) and
(as sometimes also the container with the application also contains libraries) also the application container.

Generally speaking, most containers are serving a single application of a single version, and not usually heavily reliant on OS provided services for the most part. Also, you can run your images as read-only which makes breakouts harder and less likely to be an issue even if it can/does happen.

The above is harder for something like a BBS, in my case Synchronet, because there is more OS type interaction than services written to be containerized from the start. In these cases, there are often bare (scratch), or nearly bare images that contain *ONLY* the service in question, not a full underlying OS image. This is relatively common for a lot of Go and Rust applications.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Python started out as a language designed for teaching programming. It
in turn got used a lot in higher education, and eventually grew from
there. At least this is my understanding.

Maybe you're thinking of Pascal?

Could be...

https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/python-in-education/9781492037880/ch01.htm l


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Re: RE: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Apr 25 2023 06:10 pm

Similar boat here, even if I was a couple years older (born in '74). There were about 4-5 Synchronet boards in the Phoenix area, mostly 2-8 line BBSes, seemed to be the option most were running for multiline. There were a handful of MajorBBS boards as well, 2 smaller (6 line) and a couple really big 24-50 lines (rock garden and flatlands iirc).

I find that interesting, as I don't remember seeing any Synchronet BBSes in my area in the 90s (I hadn't heard about Synchronet until I was looking up BBS packages to start my BBS again in 2007). Many of the bigger BBSes in my area running multiple nodes seemed to use MajorBBS, and some of them were running Wildcat or perhaps RemoteAccess. I only had 1 phone line though, so the 2-node registration for RemoteAccess was within my reach.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Tracker1 to paulie420 on Tue Apr 25 2023 06:19 pm

after calling around and realizing that every, single, wildcat board looked exactly the same, I just stopped altogether. There were so many in 602 back then... mostly hung out on the Renegade/Telegard boards (1993-1997).

I remember that as well for Wildcat boards in my area - Most of them looked pretty much the same for some reason.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Tracker1 to Michael Borthwick on Tue Apr 25 2023 06:25 pm

I'm surprised Microsoft hasn't moved Windows to a subscription model
yet.

Someone else probably already chimed in, but they really have. If you're even a mid sized company, you're probably on an annual licensing/support model. Very similar to how Office365 pretty much took over in the business space for the licensing.

I think they've had business support licenses for quite a long time now - of course, only really useful for businesses and not home customers.

Nightfox

Re: Re: PDF Files
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Adept on Tue Apr 25 2023 08:40 am

At least with Amazon, I don't think you can write a review if you
haven't bought the thing.

I thought I had been able to write product reviews on Amazon even if I hadn't bought it there.. I seem to remember doing that for a couple products I bought and just wanted to share a review on Amazon. I thought Amazon had a "verified purchase" badge for customers writing a review who had actually purchased it from Amazon.

Nightfox

On 25 Apr 2023, Nightfox said the following...

I find that interesting, as I don't remember seeing any Synchronet BBSes in my area in the 90s (I hadn't heard about Synchronet until I was
looking up BBS packages to start my BBS again in 2007). Many of the bigger BBSes in my area running multiple nodes seemed to use MajorBBS,
and some of them were running Wildcat or perhaps RemoteAccess. I only
had 1 phone line though, so the 2-node registration for RemoteAccess was within my reach.

our local bbs here was majorbbs too. first synchronet bbs i called was in california (i'm in michigan..) and it cost me a pretty penny in long distance. i don't remember what it was called but i think it was filled with teenagers (which i was at the time) .. possibly run by a local high school or something?

second one the moment my account was created the sysop dropped me into chat
and we talked a while. i think he was quite old. don't think i saw any others except the o-zone which was a bit later and telnet-only. until sync3 came along it seemed pretty obscure.

... How do I set my laser printer to stun?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

On 25 Apr 2023, Nightfox said the following...

I remember that as well for Wildcat boards in my area - Most of them looked pretty much the same for some reason.

for a long time you could get away with this.. long distance was a killer..

... The only place I want data loss is on my credit card!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Tracker1 to Gamgee on Tue Apr 25 2023 07:00 pm

As a "normal user" you don't run what the developer creates? Would you rath

I must be weird, but I like that both exist. If one does not exist, I prefer a well docummented procedure for deploying manually because I can automate it myself easily if there is docummentation. When there is no guide for a manual install and the official method is docker-compose or similar, you need to waste your time looking into the docker files and that irks me.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: fusion to Nightfox on Tue Apr 25 2023 04:42 pm

others except the o-zone which was a bit later and telnet-only. until sync3

Ah, enigma/dink. He's the one that I got that sbbs v2 crack from. Where'd he go?
--
digital man (rob)

This Is Spinal Tap quote #25:
Viv Savage: Have... a good... time... all the time. That's my philosophy. Norco, CA WX: 71.3°F, 60.0% humidity, 8 mph SSE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Tracker1 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Apr 25 2023 06:05 pm

Coax because the cards, cables etc were dirt cheap and didn't have a lot of money back then (working two jobs) until I managed to get a paying job doing helpdesk support and shifted web development. Was definitely a relatively fun time in my life.

I was lucky - worked in IT at the time, and was available any time old tech was tossed out to make room for new tech. I ended up with 3 LANTastic cards, the software, tons of thinnet cable, t-connectors and terminators.

I networked the BBS running DOS and my desktop running OS/2. LANTastic didn't support OS/2, so I made a custom DOS VDM for it. Unlike a modern virtual machine, it could share the filesystem with OS/2.

LANTastic had file sharing, some nice print directors and a remote KVM feature. I could run the software on the BBS, share the BBS-connected printer and see the BBS screen from my desktop.

Not bad for DOS - in 1992.

...Have you ever asked a question you weren't supposed to ask?
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: RE: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Tue Apr 25 2023 01:11 pm

I find that interesting, as I don't remember seeing any Synchronet BBSes in my area in the 90s (I hadn't heard about Synchronet until I was looking up BBS packages to start my BBS again in 2007). Many of the bigger BBSes

It's my theory that BBSes grew organically. Someone starts a BBS running package X, local callers, if they like it, choose package X when they start their BBS. Get enough BBSes going and you have critical mass.

WWIV and Forum were the two primary packages in 415 when I was starting out -- later Searchlight for small BBSes and PCBoard/TBBS for the pay boards.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Tracker1 wrote to Gamgee <=-

I've never really seen the point of docker. Seems like a lot of extra
work for..... what? Security? I'm on a home LAN and am not worried
about that. As for backups etc... not sure how it could really be
easier than an automated rsync (or similar) every night, to both a LAN device, and an off-location device. But anyway.... <SHRUG>.

All around, just easier to deal with in terms of automation and
different software on a given system with less overhead than full
VMs. The software is packaged with all its dependencies. This
generally means if a given version of Library X works with
software A, but software B requires a different version, you get
a gold copy of each software with what *it* needs.

The reasons to do so are very similar to why you might run
separate VMs for different software installs, without the
overhead of full VMs and a few other benefits as well. Such as
compose, swarm, k8s and other options that let you run not just a
given software, but related softwares as well. If you run
something that requires a database service, redis cache, traefik
proxy, etc... you can have this all defined in a single stack
that will stand up and communicate with the other services
appropriately.

Backup is roughly the same, except you don't really need to
trapse around for config files over hear, other options there,
and data somewhere else. It's in one root. Of course with
synchronet, this generally also means your executables are there
too, which is one thing you don't typically want with a Docker
image as the image is meant to contain the executables, and all
the data/storage is in volume mounts that are separate.

Upgrading is generally just run the new version against the same
data volumes and it transparently upgrades and is now running the
new version against your existing data, no muss, no fuss.

Just like the previous message of yours to me, this one makes no sense
to me, either. I don't do ANY of the things you describe, and I don't
try to make things more complicated than they have to be, just because I
think I can.


... Honk if you've never seen an Uzi fired from a car window.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Tracker1 wrote to Gamgee <=-

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).

As a "normal user" you don't run what the developer creates?

I do. However, your question is completely unrelated to what was being discussed.

Would you rather have a 5-page guide on installing something, or
1-3 lines you can run on the command line?

Now we are talking about installing software? How did we jump to that?

The ACTUAL topic was the pros/cons of running things in a container
rather than just running them the way a "normal" user would.

When I install new software, I either compile it and install, or just
install a pre-made package. Your questions seem to come out of left
field and really don't make much sense to me.



... Nothing's foolproof - the idiots are too ingenious.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Hello Adept!

But, really, I'm over complicating it. Certainly, there are
technical review sites that'd lead me to the right place
anyway, and in Germany I have no doubt that there are
ratings somewhere telling me about the highest-rated
printers for a given need.

A simple search for "top-rated laser printers for home use"
could be a starting point, and an article from a reasonably
reliable researcher. I wouldn't necessarily pick the cheapest
though.

I acquired the wireless version of the HP P1005 years ago for a
church library. Later, when the library was downsided and
later eliminated, I regret that I didn't ask if I could have
the printer.

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

I networked the BBS running DOS and my desktop running OS/2. LANTastic didn't support OS/2, so I made a custom DOS VDM for it. Unlike a modern virtual machine, it could share the filesystem with OS/2.

LANTastic was a bargain when it came to early networking for DOS. Me and a group of friends were pretty well invested in it with our BBS systems. They *did* eventually come out with an OS/2 version of LANTastic, I think, but it was too little, too late.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

It's my theory that BBSes grew organically. Someone starts a BBS
running package X, local callers, if they like it, choose package X
when they start their BBS. Get enough BBSes going and you have critical mass.

A lot of it had to do with existing sysops being able (when willing) to help with the software they're already running, AND also because they usually kept
a copy of that software (and various doors that would work with it) in their file bases.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

Python started out as a language designed for teaching programming. It
in turn got used a lot in higher education, and eventually grew from there. At least this is my understanding.

Reading Wikipedia, it talks about how it grew out of the ABC programming language, which is exactly what you're describing.

But Python's Wikipedia article doesn't mention that at all. So anyone have knowledge on the claims on it being designed for teaching?

I imagine it probably worked fairly well for that, given its roots, though.

Regardless, interesting.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Running Linux mostly myself... though don't use Acrobat for editing
PDFs, I really can't stand GIMP. It just isn't great, it's too hard for the easy stuff and not feature rich enough for the pro stuff.

Do you have a pro-stuff example?

At this point, I'm used to GIMP and would have a much harder time doing basic stuff in Photoshop, but I'm wondering what features I'm missing out on.

Mind you, my needs are such that it'll never make sense for me to pay for Photoshop, so this is just curiosity.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

At least with Amazon, I don't think you can write a review if you
haven't bought the thing.

I think I distrust Amazon reviews, too, as I think they also have a significant fake-reviewer problem.

Though there's a lot I distrust about Amazon, for a variety of reasons.

Though I'm still sad that the search is so awful, and has gotten worse for advertising reasons.

But, "I want clothing that fits me, because of being too tall/short/whatever" should be _so_ much easier than it is, even with ads. Since, "Hey, you might like this thing that doesn't fit you!" probably doesn't lead to _too_ many sales.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Ogg wrote to Adept <=-

A simple search for "top-rated laser printers for home use"
could be a starting point, and an article from a reasonably
reliable researcher. I wouldn't necessarily pick the cheapest
though.

Hint: the review sites love Brother monochrome lasers. I bought my mom
one to replace a Samsung that was no longer supported by Chromebook
printing, and the Brother has been reliable.

I have a Samsung ML-2525W that's 10+ years old that will make me sad
when it goes.



... A NEW LIFE AWAITS YOU IN THE OFF-WORLD COLONIES!
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: fusion to Nightfox on Tue Apr 25 2023 04:43 pm

I remember that as well for Wildcat boards in my area - Most of them
looked pretty much the same for some reason.

for a long time you could get away with this.. long distance was a killer..

I never really called any BBSes long-distance (maybe once or twice) due to the long-distance phone bills. The Wildcat BBSes I was thinking of were all local in my area. I don't think being long-distance had anything to do with the Wildcat BBSes looking alike.

Nightfox

Re: RE: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Tue Apr 25 2023 05:49 pm

I find that interesting, as I don't remember seeing any Synchronet
BBSes in my area in the 90s (I hadn't heard about Synchronet until I
was looking up BBS packages to start my BBS again in 2007). Many of
the bigger BBSes

It's my theory that BBSes grew organically. Someone starts a BBS running package X, local callers, if they like it, choose package X when they start their BBS. Get enough BBSes going and you have critical mass.

WWIV and Forum were the two primary packages in 415 when I was starting out -- later Searchlight for small BBSes and PCBoard/TBBS for the pay boards.

Yeah, that's what I've often thought too.
There were many BBS packages I remember being used in my area: RemoteAccess, WWIV, Searchlight, Wildcat, Maximus, MajorBBS, Spitfire, Ezycom, TAG, Telegard, Renegade, and probably others. It sounds like Synchronet was another popular one, so I'm a little surprised I don't remember seeing any Synchronet BBSes in my area.

Nightfox

There were many BBS packages I remember being used in my area: RemoteAccess, WWIV, Searchlight, Wildcat, Maximus, MajorBBS, Spitfire, Ezycom, TAG, Telegard Renegade, and probably others. It sounds like Synchronet was another popular one, so I'm a little surprised I don't remember seeing any Synchronet BBSes in my area.

I never saw any Synchronet BBSs in my area either. There may have been some but I never stumbled upon any.

Back in the dial-up days we used what ever files were being uploaded in the local area. RA, Maxinus, and renegade were abundant, and a few others. I never came across a Synchronet BBS until I started telneting to BBSs sometime in the early 2000's.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)

At least with Amazon, I don't think you can write a review if you haven't bought the thing.

I think I distrust Amazon reviews, too, as I think they also have a significant fake-reviewer problem.

I agree that Amazon reviews should be taken with a huge grain of salt, but
for me the problem is two-fold, you have positive reviews that seem a little less than legit, and you have negative reviews by idiots who didn't read the manual or don't understand what it is they were buying. I think there's also
an emotional bias that exists in the legitimate reviews because usually only people who are *really* happy or *really* unhappy are going to take the time
to review. (This is a common Yelp problem, too, I think...)

As for the message you're replying to, if that's true about only buyers being able to review things, it's new, because they used to have a 'verified buyer' flag after reviews, which made it seem like anyone could review and you'd
only get the 'verified' flag if they knew that you bought it from them.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Adept to Tracker1 on Wed Apr 26 2023 01:39 pm

But Python's Wikipedia article doesn't mention that at all. So anyone have knowledge on the claims on it being designed for teaching?

I did some searching recently but didn't find anything saying that's what it was designed for. I've heard Python is used in some college courses to teach programming though.

Nightfox

Re: Re: PDF Files
By: Adept to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 26 2023 01:51 pm

I think I distrust Amazon reviews, too, as I think they also have a significant fake-reviewer problem.

One thing that frustrates me about Amazon is that they link different versions of a product together for the reviews. Years ago, I was reading through reviews for an HP computer (and I had wrote a review myself for it) - My review was talking about one with an AMD processor, and there were people commenting that my review must be wrong because it has an Intel processor, etc.. I realized that the same HP computer model came in versions with an AMD processor and some with Intel, and Amazon's product page had reviews for both/all of those for the same product listing. It makes for confusing reviews sometimes.

Nightfox

True. My Word 2007 seems to have output to PDF option. But
those apps were no good of you already had a PDF and just
wanted to build a new PDF file out of an existing one.

Years ago you needed commercial Acrobat DC from Adobe, but I believe free Adobe Reader today has some limited capacity to modify PDF files as well.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Maybe the reason is "Slackware". ;-)

Wow, is Slackware still alive?

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

The fun part with OpenSource is exploring the options, I guess XD

this is very true. great comparison of options with the BSD ecosystem on mind. It was a pleasure to read it!

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Linux, on the other hand, was a complete reimplementation
from scratch. Linus Torvalds wanted something that took
better advantage of his hardware than Minix, the teaching
system by Andy Tannenbaum that he had been running. Linux
took a far more traditional approach to building a Unix-like
system, in that it's a monolithic kernel (the kernel exists
in a single address space), while Minix is a microkernel
(services are logically distinct and isolated from one
another, and communicate via message-passing). Famously,
Tannenbaum took Torvalds to task for this decision, declaring
Linux obsolete before it was finished. Of course, it is now,
by far, the most popular and important operating system in
the world.

I just kept the Linux part as quotation but the whole story is just amazing reading! All such stories deserve separate thread!

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: hollowone to Gamgee on Wed Apr 26 2023 12:02 pm

Maybe the reason is "Slackware". ;-)

Wow, is Slackware still alive?

You bet. It is the oldest Linux distribution still maintained.

I actually like it. I wish it had better release engineering.

--
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--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Maybe the reason is "Slackware". ;-)

Wow, is Slackware still alive?

It is. Slackware 15.0 is a good choice if you want a stable OS, and slackware-current if you want bleeding edge.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-6
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)

On 26 Apr 2023, hollowone said the following...

Wow, is Slackware still alive?

i'm using it. Slackware 15..

i think most people are confused by slackware because they don't do a 'stable' release all the time. the slackware-current version has updates just as or more frequently than many others..

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

I think I distrust Amazon reviews, too, as I think they also have a significant fake-reviewer problem.

Yeah, they absolutely do. There are websites where people can arrange to get products on Amazon for free or at a discount in exchange for a review. There's also the even more shady practice of ordering their own product and sending it to addresses they somehow found, so they can write their own review. That happened to me once, a random stupid nothing thing showed up at my office addressed to me, that I didn't order.

Honestly I wish they didn't remove the comments on reviews, their excuse is they supposedly weren't used enough. Which is total BS. I used to enjoy leaving comments on particular reviews. You've probably seen them, people leaving a negative review because they bought the wrong thing. I remember two particular instances that cracked me up. One person negatively reviewed a 2-Wire extension cord, frustrated that it did not have a ground wire. The second was, somebody complained that antenna coax wouldn't connect to their TV.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Ground Control (21:3/140)

I agree that Amazon reviews should be taken with a huge grain of salt,
but for me the problem is two-fold, you have positive reviews that seem
a little less than legit, and you have negative reviews by idiots who didn't read the manual or don't understand what it is they were buying.

Funny you mention that, I just posted two examples I remember finding where people left negative reviews because they bought the wrong thing. It was pretty funny.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Ground Control (21:3/140)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Arelor to hollowone on Wed Apr 26 2023 03:34 pm

Wow, is Slackware still alive?

You bet. It is the oldest Linux distribution still maintained.

Slackware was the first Linux distribution I was exposed to, in the mid 90s. I still hadn't had my own computer for very long, and I didn't seriously get into Linux until a while later. But I rmeember when Slackware was on a set of 3.5" floppy disks, and it had an option where it could be booted up from DOS.

Nightfox

Re: RE: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 26 2023 10:29 am

Yeah, that's what I've often thought too.
There were many BBS packages I remember being used in my area: RemoteAccess, WWIV, Searchlight, Wildcat, Maximus, MajorBBS, Spitfire, Ezycom, TAG, Telegard, Renegade, and probably others. It sounds like Synchronet was another popular one, so I'm a little surprised I don't remember seeing any Synchronet BBSes in my area.

I don't think Synchronet was more popular than those you mentioned, necessarily (I don't know for sure), but I do think Synchronet was *newer* (introduced later) than those you mentioned (1992). So while Synchronet was was still increasing in popularity when the bottom fell out of the BBS "market", I don't think it really surpassed in popularity any of those you listed until the 2000's.
--
digital man (rob)

Sling Blade quote #6:
Karl: he should've had a chance to grow up. He would had fun some time.
Norco, CA WX: 79.1°F, 41.0% humidity, 12 mph SSE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

hollowone wrote to Gamgee <=-

Maybe the reason is "Slackware". ;-)

Wow, is Slackware still alive?

Of course it is. Alive and well, and with development updates every
single day. It's been my daily driver for 20+ years, and my servers and
BBS run on it. ;-)



... System halted - Press all keys at once to continue.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: RE: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed Apr 26 2023 04:48 pm

Ezycom, TAG, Telegard, Renegade, and probably others. It sounds like
Synchronet was another popular one, so I'm a little surprised I don't
remember seeing any Synchronet BBSes in my area.

I don't think Synchronet was more popular than those you mentioned, necessarily (I don't know for sure), but I do think Synchronet was *newer* (introduced later) than those you mentioned (1992). So while Synchronet was was still increasing in popularity when the bottom fell out of the BBS "market", I don't think it really surpassed in popularity any of those you listed until the 2000's.

That makes sense.

Nightfox

our local bbs here was majorbbs too. first synchronet bbs i called was in california (i'm in michigan..) and it cost me a pretty penny in long distance. i don't remember what it was called but i think it was filled with teenagers (which i was at the time) .. possibly run by a local high school or something?

second one the moment my account was created the sysop dropped me into chat and we talked a while. i think he was quite old. don't think i saw any others except the o-zone which was a bit later and telnet-only. until sync3 came along it seemed pretty obscure.

The fact that I saw a few, may have been from me being in Phoenix, AZ... closer to California physically and likely a bit more direct connections etc. *shrug* Renegade was definitely the most widespread here from what I recall. One of my best friends was kicked off the Renegade support network, so he started dialing in long distance to Cott Lang's board. Cott wasn't going to boot him, and figured the net wouldn't drop his board and found the whole thing rather amusing as I recall.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Just like the previous message of yours to me, this one makes no sense
to me, either. I don't do ANY of the things you describe, and I don't
try to make things more complicated than they have to be, just because I think I can.

And yet, you still feel compelled to reply and declare this all the same. Just because *YOU* don't see the value in something, doesn't mean it in fact has no value.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Would you rather have a 5-page guide on installing something,

or 1-3 lines you can run on the command line?

Now we are talking about installing software? How did we jump to that?

That's what running something in a container gives you... Installed software.

If you run a container built by someone, then that container contains said software. Your alternative is to install it yourself, which may or may not mean compiling it yourself.

It's absolutely relevant.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

A simple search for "top-rated laser printers for home use"
could be a starting point, and an article from a reasonably
reliable researcher. I wouldn't necessarily pick the cheapest
though.

Unfortunately, the top results are likely to be paid listicles where the reviews are not actually organing, and may not be an expert at the product in question. This happens a lot for "top X" type searches, the results are generally unreliable in nature.

I acquired the wireless version of the HP P1005 years ago for a
church library. Later, when the library was downsided and
later eliminated, I regret that I didn't ask if I could have
the printer.

That's cool... I'm using an HP m405 color laser I bought about 8 years ago... it does have wireless, but running it wired, I'd read there were some issues users had with wireless, though I hadn't tried it myself. Works out of the box for nearly everything under the sun. Linux, windows, mac, even my phone prints to it without issue.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Running Linux mostly myself... though don't use Acrobat for editing
PDFs, I really can't stand GIMP. It just isn't great, it's too hard
for the easy stuff and not feature rich enough for the pro stuff.

Do you have a pro-stuff example?

Raw images, proper colors for print work are the two that come to the forfront. That doesn't even approach the more advanced stuff in more recent PS versions.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

One thing that frustrates me about Amazon is that they link different versions of a product together for the reviews. Years ago, I was reading through reviews for an HP computer (and I had wrote a review myself for it) - My review was talking about one with an AMD processor, and there were people commenting that my review must be wrong because it has an Intel processor, etc.. I realized that the same HP computer model came in versions with an AMD processor and some with Intel, and Amazon's product page had reviews for both/all of those for the same product listing. It makes for confusing reviews sometimes.

Yeah, sellers have been doing this, it's supposed to be to support having different colors of shirts, etc... but sometimes really different models of things are grouped together, or worse, someone takes an old, well reviewed product and basically takes over the item. White-washing the reviews or muddying things. It really sucks in that it makes it harder to even determine the value. I find I have to dig in and read a few top/bottom comments to get a gist.


--
Michael J. Ryan
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tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
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Re: Re: PDF Files
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Thu Apr 27 2023 08:31 pm

One thing that frustrates me about Amazon is that they link
different versions of a product together for the reviews. Years ago,
I was reading through reviews for an HP computer (and I had wrote a
review myself for it) - My review was talking about one with an AMD
processor, and there were people commenting that my review must be
wrong because it has an Intel processor, etc.. I realized that the

Yeah, sellers have been doing this, it's supposed to be to support having

I didn't think it's 3rd-party sellers doing that, but Amazon itself. I had guessed it's how Amazon set up their database or web site, in a way that different versions of a product all share the same reviews.

It's also frustrating when I want to buy a movie on blu-ray or 4K and there are reviews for the DVD version mixed in there, etc..

Nightfox

Hi Nightfox,

On Wednesday April 26 2023, Nightfox said to Arelor:

But I rmeember when Slackware was on a set of 3.5" floppy disks, and it had an option where N> it could be booted up from DOS.

Oh the days before Lilo.... #-)


\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)

Raw images, proper colors for print work are the two that come to the forfront. That doesn't even approach the more advanced stuff in more recent PS versions.

Ah, okay. Yeah, while I'd _like_ to get a calendar printed eventually (giant, non-moving project list...), not something I've previously looked at.

Thanks for the examples.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

But I rmeember when Slackware was on a set of 3.5" floppy disks, and i an option where N> it could be booted up from DOS.

Oh the days before Lilo.... #-)

Well. my first linux was Monkey Linux installed on top of MSDOS.
That was interesting experience when I turned back to dos and I saw funny filenames tried to pretend being long names.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Hi Hollowone,

On Friday April 28 2023, Hollowone said to Vorlon:

But I rmeember when Slackware was on a set of 3.5" floppy disks,
an option where it could be booted up from DOS.

Oh the days before Lilo.... #-)

Well. my first linux was Monkey Linux installed on top of MSDOS. That
was interesting experience when I turned back to dos and I saw funny filenames tried to pretend being long names.

Mine was slackware or the one that started with a 'y', I just can't remember it's been so long.... Took days to download the disk images is one memory,
and hoping that the connection didn't drop in the process....



\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)

Vorlon wrote to hollowone <=-

Mine was slackware or the one that started with a 'y', I just can't remember it's been so long....

Yggdrasil(l)


--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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Hi Poindexter,

On Saturday April 29 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

Mine was slackware or the one that started with a 'y', I just can't
remember it's been so long....

Yggdrasil(l)

That's the one... Too many years have passed since then... #-/

\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)