This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.


--
Chris Green
·

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.

Unless you're prepared to plug in a monitor, or enable and connect a serial console, then pulling the plug is the only way.

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 11/12/2023 12:28, Theo wrote:

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.

Unless you're prepared to plug in a monitor, or enable and connect a serial console, then pulling the plug is the only way.

Not quite Theo.

You *could* set up a hardware interrupt on a GPIO pin that invokes some
kind of (more or less) orderly shutdown.

And attach a 'reset' button. Or a 'power off' button. Depending on what
you did in the interrupt service routine

Theo

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

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The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 11/12/2023 12:28, Theo wrote:

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.

Unless you're prepared to plug in a monitor, or enable and connect a serial console, then pulling the plug is the only way.

Not quite Theo.

You *could* set up a hardware interrupt on a GPIO pin that invokes some
kind of (more or less) orderly shutdown.

And attach a 'reset' button. Or a 'power off' button. Depending on what
you did in the interrupt service routine

Yes, presumably that's what the BBB's 'power off' button does, it
sometimes takes quite a few seconds after clicking the button before
the BBB actually powers down. What's rather nice is that if you click
the button again the BBB powers up.

--
Chris Green
·

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Chris,

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

Maybe adding a "shutdown" button as per the below ?

https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/117013/raspberry-pi-4-b-gpio-boot-and-shutdown-buttons

(DDG search term "RPi shutdown button")
Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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R.Wieser <address@is.invalid> wrote:

Chris,

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

Maybe adding a "shutdown" button as per the below ?

https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/117013/raspberry-pi-4-b-gpio-boot-and-shutdown-buttons

OP here, thank you, that's really useful, and not only for the
shutdown button. I'm using the RPi to read/control several I2C
devices (taking over from a BBB) and that page has lots of useful I2C information as well.

--
Chris Green
·

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Chris,

OP here, thank you, that's really useful, and not only for the
shutdown button. I'm using the RPi to read/control several I2C
devices (taking over from a BBB) and that page has lots of useful I2C information as well.

You're welcome, even though the I2C extras where (ofcourse) a lucky shot.
:-)

One question though : I don't think that your above BBB means "Better
Business Bureau", but than what /does/ it mean ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

R.Wieser <address@is.invalid> wrote:

Chris,

OP here, thank you, that's really useful, and not only for the
shutdown button. I'm using the RPi to read/control several I2C
devices (taking over from a BBB) and that page has lots of useful I2C information as well.

You're welcome, even though the I2C extras where (ofcourse) a lucky shot.
:-)

One question though : I don't think that your above BBB means "Better Business Bureau", but than what /does/ it mean ?

It means Beaglebone Black, a single board computer quite similar in
some ways to the Pi. It was introduced about the same time with the
specific aim of having open source *hardware*. It las a lot more I/O
than the Pi, two 46-way sockets.

However it hasn't got updated like the Pi and so is now somewhat
behind as regards processor power etc.

--
Chris Green
·

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.

You can SSH into them and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
That works.

Alas Pi's really DON'T have a proper 'reset' pin. You
can MAKE a shutdown-pin by polling one of the GPIO
pins though - attach it to a physical push-button
switch.

Pi's are microPROCESSORS rather than microCONTROLLERS.
Most modern microC's have a "weak pull-up" you can set
for a pin. Then just ground the pin to register your
button-press. For a Pi, you may prefer to use a
pull-up resistor from the 3.3v pin - 10,000 ohms
is fine. THEN poll, looking for a sudden change to
zero volts. You can write a simple Python daemon
and @reboot it to life in root crontab. Check maybe
every one or one/half sec so you don't burn too
much CPU. You can also use interrupts, but that's
unnecessarily complicated most times.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.

You can SSH into them and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
That works.

Didn't you see the bit that says "...I can't log in via ssh."? :-)

--
Chris Green
·

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Chris,

One question though : I don't think that your above BBB means
"Better Business Bureau", but than what /does/ it mean ?

It means Beaglebone Black, a single board computer quite similar
in some ways to the Pi.

Ah yes, I've heard about that one. Never seen one though.

However it hasn't got updated like the Pi and so is now somewhat
behind as regards processor power etc.

:-) Not everyone yearns for having the newest-and-fastest thingamagotchy.

Take me, I've got a swell time working with a RPi... One? (one of the
earliest versions, without mounting holes) running a Lite version (CLI interface only) of BullsEye.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

R.Wieser <address@is.invalid> wrote:

Chris,

One question though : I don't think that your above BBB means
"Better Business Bureau", but than what /does/ it mean ?

It means Beaglebone Black, a single board computer quite similar
in some ways to the Pi.

Ah yes, I've heard about that one. Never seen one though.

However it hasn't got updated like the Pi and so is now somewhat
behind as regards processor power etc.

:-) Not everyone yearns for having the newest-and-fastest thingamagotchy.

Take me, I've got a swell time working with a RPi... One? (one of the earliest versions, without mounting holes) running a Lite version (CLI interface only) of BullsEye.

I have quite a selection of Pis back to quite early versions and all
of them are CLI only.

--
Chris Green
·

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Chris,

I have quite a selection of Pis back to quite early versions and
all of them are CLI only.

I did install the full, GUI based version of BullsEye, just to see if it
would work. It did.

But the lack of any kind of speed made me quickly decide that maybe a CLI version would work better. :-)

To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised that that not-too-old BullsEye
wanted to boot on that rather ancient RPi.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 11/12/2023 16:56, R.Wieser wrote:

Chris,

OP here, thank you, that's really useful, and not only for the
shutdown button. I'm using the RPi to read/control several I2C
devices (taking over from a BBB) and that page has lots of useful I2C
information as well.

You're welcome, even though the I2C extras where (ofcourse) a lucky shot.
:-)

One question though : I don't think that your above BBB means "Better Business Bureau", but than what /does/ it mean ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

I assume Beagle Bone Black or similar?

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/12/2023 05:16, 56g.1173 wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
*can't log in via ssh*, how can one then shut down safely?

  *You can SSH into them* and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
  That works.

Edited to display idiocy more clearly


--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12/12/2023 09:52, R.Wieser wrote:

Chris,

I have quite a selection of Pis back to quite early versions and
all of them are CLI only.

I did install the full, GUI based version of BullsEye, just to see if it would work. It did.

But the lack of any kind of speed made me quickly decide that maybe a CLI version would work better. :-)

To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised that that not-too-old BullsEye wanted to boot on that rather ancient RPi.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

I've got Bookworm running (no gui) on
Hardware : BCM2835
Revision : 900032
Serial : 00000000c72dee2a
Model : Raspberry Pi Model B Plus Rev 1.2

I got it for £10 (still in it's box) on ebay.


--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT FAKE RABIES

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In article <hg5j4k-um341.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, cl@isbd.net says...

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

What I do on my Pis is run an application which watches for the
insertion of a USB stick labelled SHUTDOWNPI.

https://github.com/jps-aldridge/shutdownthumb

--
Cheers
John

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On 12/12/23 4:17 AM, Chris Green wrote:

56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.

You can SSH into them and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
That works.

Didn't you see the bit that says "...I can't log in via ssh."? :-)

I'd hoped he'd figured that out already ... he CAN, if
he sets it up correctly. Most common err on a Pi is to
forget to enable the service ... either using the config
GUI or manually with systemctl. I change the default port
and the too-liberal login stuff in sshd_config too, just
to be safe.

However a "clean shutdown" BUTTON would be a really good
thing - ergo the description of how to go for that. Ya
can also write your OWN little daemon, send "STOP" on
port whatever, separate from SSH.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Oh, "idiocy" ??? I'd say "optimism !" :-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 23:49:49 -0000, John Aldridge wrote:

In article <hg5j4k-um341.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, cl@isbd.net says...

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

What I do on my Pis is run an application which watches for the
insertion of a USB stick labelled SHUTDOWNPI.

https://github.com/jps-aldridge/shutdownthumb

The standard Linux "su - shutdown" or "su - shutdown --poweroff" should do
the trick, while "man 8 shutdown" or "su - shutdown --help" tells you all
about it.

Hint: If you're not quite sure what a command is called, but you want to
see its manpage, running the command "apropos whatIwant" will show you all
the manual pages whose NAME sentence contains that character string or something similar.


--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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On 12/12/23 5:13 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 12/12/2023 05:16, 56g.1173 wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
*can't log in via ssh*, how can one then shut down safely?

   *You can SSH into them* and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
   That works.

Edited to display idiocy more clearly

SSH is almost bulletproof ... hoped he'd figured
it out ......

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 13/12/2023 01:18, 56g.1173 wrote:

On 12/12/23 5:13 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 12/12/2023 05:16, 56g.1173 wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
*can't log in via ssh*, how can one then shut down safely?

   *You can SSH into them* and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
   That works.

Edited to display idiocy more clearly

  SSH is almost bulletproof ... hoped he'd figured
  it out ......

SSH is only as bulletproof as the underlying operating system

I cant believe you have never had a headless server that for whatever
reason has run out of RAM, is in full swap, and if you get a login
prompt in under an hour that's good going.

We had a system where we could dial in on a modem and power cycle one of
16 machines in a dark office. If the serial consoles didn't give us a
response. And we couldn't reach the cluster over the internet.



--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

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On 13/12/2023 01:17, 56g.1173 wrote:

On 12/12/23 4:17 AM, Chris Green wrote:

56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.

   You can SSH into them and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
   That works.

Didn't you see the bit that says "...I can't log in via ssh."? :-)

  I'd hoped he'd figured that out already ... he CAN, if
  he sets it up correctly.

Seriously, dont be such a fucking twat. Obviously he can until his
system locks up, and then he CANT.

And that is his problem. That he cant ssh in. Ive had this occasionally
with my remote virtual private servers. Something like a memory leak or
a full disk or someone DOSing it stops me getting in.

Only solution is a console reboot and hit the server logs before it
restarts, firewall out whoever is doing it, if they are, or delete the
logs of them trying which have flooded the limited disk...

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

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On Wed Dec 13 02:59:00 2023, The Natural Philosopher wrote to All <=-

On 13/12/2023 01:17, 56g.1173 wrote:

On 12/12/23 4:17 AM, Chris Green wrote:

56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I >>>> can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one >>>> would prefer not to.

You can SSH into them and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
That works.

Didn't you see the bit that says "...I can't log in via ssh."? :-)

I'd hoped he'd figured that out already ... he CAN, if
he sets it up correctly.

Seriously, dont be such a fucking twat. Obviously he can until his
system locks up, and then he CANT.

And that is his problem. That he cant ssh in. Ive had this occasionally
with my remote virtual private servers. Something like a memory leak or
a full disk or someone DOSing it stops me getting in.

I've been having a similar issue with one of my Pis acting as a PiHole. Every week or so, it totally locks up, can't SSH in, can't even get a serial terminal, have to hard reboot. Luckily it's actually the secondary DNS so stuff on my network stays up and running, but it's annoying because it also is connected to my UPS and a RTL-SDR that reports to FlightAware. Their emails telling me my feed is down is usually the first time I notice it's locked up again.

Only solution is a console reboot and hit the server logs before it restarts, firewall out whoever is doing it, if they are, or delete the
logs of them trying which have flooded the limited disk...

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

--
Aurelius
Home BBS: aBSiNTHe

=== TitanMail/linux v1.2.4
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

On 12/12/23 4:17 AM, Chris Green wrote:

56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.

You can SSH into them and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
That works.

Didn't you see the bit that says "...I can't log in via ssh."? :-)

I'd hoped he'd figured that out already ... he CAN, if
he sets it up correctly. Most common err on a Pi is to
forget to enable the service ... either using the config
GUI or manually with systemctl. I change the default port
and the too-liberal login stuff in sshd_config too, just
to be safe.

OP here. What I meant when I said "...I can't log in via ssh." is a
situation where the software has crashed or something like that. I
know quite well how to configure a Pi to let me log in using ssh.

--
Chris Green
·

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 23:49:49 -0000, John Aldridge wrote:

In article <hg5j4k-um341.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, cl@isbd.net says...

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

What I do on my Pis is run an application which watches for the
insertion of a USB stick labelled SHUTDOWNPI.

https://github.com/jps-aldridge/shutdownthumb

The standard Linux "su - shutdown" or "su - shutdown --poweroff" should do the trick, while "man 8 shutdown" or "su - shutdown --help" tells you all about it.

Hint: If you're not quite sure what a command is called, but you want to
see its manpage, running the command "apropos whatIwant" will show you all the manual pages whose NAME sentence contains that character string or something similar.

I use 'man -k', exactly the same, very useful.

--
Chris Green
·

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On 12/12/2023 11:11, A.M. Rowsell wrote:

On Wed Dec 13 02:59:00 2023, The Natural Philosopher wrote to All <=-

> And that is his problem. That he cant ssh in. Ive had this occasionally
> with my remote virtual private servers. Something like a memory leak or
> a full disk or someone DOSing it stops me getting in.

I've been having a similar issue with one of my Pis acting as a PiHole. Every week or so, it totally locks up, can't SSH in, can't even get a serial terminal, have to hard reboot. Luckily it's actually the secondary DNS so stuff
on my network stays up and running, but it's annoying because it also is connected to my UPS and a RTL-SDR that reports to FlightAware. Their emails telling me my feed is down is usually the first time I notice it's locked up again.

Time to look in the error logs methinks.

IME the most *likely* cause is out of RAM, either on account of a very
minor memory leak (run top and watch the memory stats) or because its on
the internet and too may incomning connections are causing it to spawn
too many processes.


--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 13/12/2023 10:29, Chris Green wrote:

OP here. What I meant when I said "...I can't log in via ssh." is a situation where the software has crashed or something like that. I
know quite well how to configure a Pi to let me log in using ssh.

Exactly, that leaves serial port as probably the only way to see what's
what, and even that wont work if getty cant spawn a login shell due to
lack of free memory

That really should NOT be happening. First stop is log files to see
what errors precede the hard reboot

--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2023-12-12, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.

You can SSH into them and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
That works.

Didn't you see the bit that says "...I can't log in via ssh."? :-)

I find it amazing how often that sort of thing happens. People skip read
posts and only respond to parts. They've obviously got time because
often the posts are llloooonnnngggg!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 2023-12-13, 56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

On 12/12/23 4:17 AM, Chris Green wrote:

56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
would prefer not to.

You can SSH into them and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
That works.

Didn't you see the bit that says "...I can't log in via ssh."? :-)

I'd hoped he'd figured that out already ... he CAN, if
he sets it up correctly.

did you actually eread the OP?
Stop DIGGING!

Most common err on a Pi is to
forget to enable the service ... either using the config
GUI or manually with systemctl. I change the default port
and the too-liberal login stuff in sshd_config too, just
to be safe.

However a "clean shutdown" BUTTON would be a really good
thing - ergo the description of how to go for that. Ya
can also write your OWN little daemon, send "STOP" on
port whatever, separate from SSH.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 12/12/2023 11:11, A.M. Rowsell wrote:

On Wed Dec 13 02:59:00 2023, The Natural Philosopher wrote to All <=-

> On 13/12/2023 01:17, 56g.1173 wrote:
> > On 12/12/23 4:17 AM, Chris Green wrote:
> >> 56g.1173 <56g.1173@ztq9.net> wrote:
> >>> On 12/11/23 5:39 AM, Chris Green wrote:
> >>>> This sort of continues from my earlier question.
> >>>>
> >>>> I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
> >>>> can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?
> >>>>
> >>>> I guess the risk of simply pulling the power isn't *that* bad but one
> >>>> would prefer not to.
> >>>
> >>> You can SSH into them and then "(sudo) shutdown now".
> >>> That works.
> >>>
> >> Didn't you see the bit that says "...I can't log in via ssh."? :-)
> >
> >
> > I'd hoped he'd figured that out already ... he CAN, if
> > he sets it up correctly.
> Seriously, dont be such a fucking twat. Obviously he can until his
> system locks up, and then he CANT.
>
> And that is his problem. That he cant ssh in. Ive had this occasionally
> with my remote virtual private servers. Something like a memory leak or
> a full disk or someone DOSing it stops me getting in.
I've been having a similar issue with one of my Pis acting as a PiHole. Every week or so, it totally locks up, can't SSH in, can't even get a serial terminal, have to hard reboot. Luckily it's actually the secondary DNS so stuff
on my network stays up and running, but it's annoying because it also is connected to my UPS and a RTL-SDR that reports to FlightAware. Their emails telling me my feed is down is usually the first time I notice it's locked up again.

You could use a heart-beat type mechanism.

The PiHole repeatedly sends a check to remote service, the heart-beat

If the heart-beat stops, you can first get a script on the PiHole to
trigger a reboot itself, if the PiHole hasn't locked up.

If the PiHole has genuinely frozen, doesn't recover in a timely way, the
remote end of the heart beat serivice could signal a seperate tasmota
style power switch to cycle the power on the PiHole.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 2023-12-12, John Aldridge <jpsa@cantab.net> wrote:

In article <hg5j4k-um341.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, cl@isbd.net says...

This sort of continues from my earlier question.

I run a number of headless Pis, sometimes I get something wrong and I
can't log in via ssh, how can one then shut down safely?

What I do on my Pis is run an application which watches for the
insertion of a USB stick labelled SHUTDOWNPI.

https://github.com/jps-aldridge/shutdownthumb

Interesting idea.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 13/12/2023 23:12, Pancho wrote:

ou could use a heart-beat type mechanism.

The PiHole repeatedly sends a check to remote service, the heart-beat

If the heart-beat stops, you can first get a script on the PiHole to
trigger a reboot itself, if the PiHole hasn't locked up.

If the PiHole has genuinely frozen, doesn't recover in a timely way, the remote end of the heart beat serivice could signal a seperate tasmota
style power switch to cycle the power on the PiHole.

Experience shows that there are a range of situations that can disable
user access. Some of them will also disable any self-rebooting type
systems you might employ.

In such cases the only option is a power cycle.

BUT if its happening regularly, the answer is to FIX THE CODE that is
causing it or replace the hardware.

I remember one SPARC machine sent in to us that 'always worked for half
an hour, but then stopped'

CPU fan was wrecked by dust.

Pis are cheap enough that a total swapout wont cost an ARM (sic!) and a
leg so that is the easiest way to eliminate a hardware fault.

Code wise, you can disable services one at a time until its stable, or
look in the log files,



--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 12/12/2023 11:11, A.M. Rowsell wrote:

I've been having a similar issue with one of my Pis acting as a PiHole. Every week or so, it totally locks up, can't SSH in, can't even get a serial terminal, have to hard reboot. Luckily it's actually the secondary DNS so stuff
on my network stays up and running, but it's annoying because it also is connected to my UPS and a RTL-SDR that reports to FlightAware. Their emails telling me my feed is down is usually the first time I notice it's locked up again.

Try the hardware watchdog, there's plenty of info on it, here is the
first page that came to hand

https://diode.io/blog/running-forever-with-the-raspberry-pi-hardware-watchdog

---druck

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 15/12/2023 20:14, druck wrote:

Try the hardware watchdog, there's plenty of info on it, here is the
first page that came to hand

https://diode.io/blog/running-forever-with-the-raspberry-pi-hardware-watchdog

---druck

The rPi has a hardware watchdog! That is cool.

Definitely something to remember for the toolbag.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 12/12/23 10:32 AM, Chris Elvidge wrote:

On 12/12/2023 09:52, R.Wieser wrote:

Chris,

I have quite a selection of Pis back to quite early versions and
all of them are CLI only.

I did install the full, GUI based version of BullsEye, just to see if it
would work.   It did.

But the lack of any kind of speed made me quickly decide that maybe a CLI
version would work better. :-)

To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised that that not-too-old BullsEye
wanted to boot on that rather ancient RPi.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

I've got Bookworm running (no gui) on
Hardware    : BCM2835
Revision    : 900032
Serial        : 00000000c72dee2a
Model        : Raspberry Pi Model B Plus Rev 1.2

I got it for £10 (still in it's box) on ebay.

The Worm *works* ... but I really do NOT like it.
Changes TOO many things to NO obvious purpose.
I fear Deb has been compromised by Canonical
thinking ....... if this continues I may have
to go to Arch or even Slack or - horrors -
BSDs.

Linux should not be "Popular" shit ... it should
be staid and solid and consistent.

Got a Pi5 coming ... it's gonna be for "multi-
media" (streaming) stuff. I've got Worm/PI
ready for it ... but might NOT stick with it.
VERY disappointed in Deb now.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 12/14/23 5:23 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 13/12/2023 23:12, Pancho wrote:

ou could use a heart-beat type mechanism.

The PiHole repeatedly sends a check to remote service, the heart-beat

If the heart-beat stops, you can first get a script on the PiHole to
trigger a reboot itself, if the PiHole hasn't locked up.

If the PiHole has genuinely frozen, doesn't recover in a timely way,
the remote end of the heart beat serivice could signal a seperate
tasmota style power switch to cycle the power on the PiHole.

Experience shows that there are a range of situations that can disable
user access. Some of them will also disable any self-rebooting type
systems you might employ.

In such cases the only option is a power cycle.

BUT if its happening regularly, the answer is to FIX THE CODE that is
causing it or replace the hardware.

I remember one SPARC machine sent in to us that  'always worked for half
an hour, but then stopped'

CPU fan was wrecked by dust.

Pis are cheap enough that a total swapout wont cost an ARM (sic!) and a
leg  so that is the easiest way to eliminate a hardware fault.

Code wise, you can disable services one at a time until its stable, or
look in the log files,

There's a cheap, rude, crude, fix that I've used
for a number of units ... crontab a reboot at maybe
midnight. Clears all bullshit and errors from memory
and maybe only 60 seconds of downtime.

Linux/PI is good, but some kinds of errors and/or
memory leaks DO seem to accumulate despite best
efforts.

Crontab a root @reboot to get everything going again.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 03/01/2024 06:03, 56g.1183 wrote:

  Linux/PI is good, but some kinds of errors and/or
  memory leaks DO seem to accumulate despite best
  efforts.

No, they dont.

Its not the Pi at fault, its not even the linux at fault, its
application code that causes memory leaks.

user@heating-controller:~ $ uptime
10:33:41 up 8 days, 9:21, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.03 user@heating-controller:~ $ free -m
total used free shared buff/cache
available
Mem: 429 67 161 30 200
278
Swap: 99 0 99

No sign of memory leaks there.


--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

T24gMDMvMDEvMjAyNCAwNTo1OCwgNTZnLjExODMgd3JvdGU6DQo+ICDCoCBUaGUgV29ybSAq d29ya3MqIC4uLiBidXQgSSByZWFsbHkgZG8gTk9UIGxpa2UgaXQuDQo+ICDCoCBDaGFuZ2Vz IFRPTyBtYW55IHRoaW5ncyB0byBOTyBvYnZpb3VzIHB1cnBvc2UuDQpbc25pcF0NCj4gICAg R290IGEgUGk1IGNvbWluZyAuLi4gaXQncyBnb25uYSBiZSBmb3IgIm11bHRpLQ0KPiAgICBt ZWRpYSIgKHN0cmVhbWluZykgc3R1ZmYuIEkndmUgZ290IFdvcm0vUEkNCj4gICAgcmVhZHkg Zm9yIGl0IC4uLiBidXQgbWlnaHQgTk9UIHN0aWNrIHdpdGggaXQuDQo+ICAgIFZFUlkgZGlz YXBwb2ludGVkIGluIERlYiBub3cuDQoNCkdpdmVuIHRoZSB3YXJuaW5ncyB0aGF0IGEgQnVs bHNleWUgdG8gQm9va3dvcm0gdXBncmFkZSB3YXNuJ3QgdmlhYmxlLCBJIA0KZGlkIGEgZnJl c2ggaW5zdGFsbCBvZiBCb29rd29ybSBvbiBteSBuZXcgUGkgNSwgYW5kIHdhcyBsZXNzIHRo YW4gDQppbXByZXNzZWQuIEl0IGNvbXBsZXRlbHkgaWdub3JlZCBteSBhdHRlbXB0cyB0byBy ZXBsYWNlIFBpeGVsIHdpdGggbXkgDQpwcmVmZXJyZWQgTWF0ZSBkZXNrdG9wLCBhbmQgSSB3 YXMgaG9ycmlmaWVkIHRvIGZpbmQgcnN5c2xvZyB3YXNuJ3QgDQphY3RpdmUgYW5kIG9ubHkg am91cm5hbGQgc2hpdGUuDQoNClNvIEkgYWJhbmRvbmVkIHRoYXQsIGFuZCB3ZW50IGJhY2sg dG8gaXQncyBwcmVkZWNlc3NvciBQaSA0Qiwgd2hpY2ggd2FzIA0KcnVubmluZyBCdWxsc2V5 ZSA2NCBiaXQgKGhhbmQgdXBncmFkZWQgZnJvbSAzMiBiaXQsIGFuZCBwcmlvciB0byB0aGF0 IGluIA0KcGxhY2UgdXBncmFkZWQgYWxsIHRoZSB3YXkgZnJvbSB0aGUgdmVyeSBmaXN0IE9T IHJ1bm5pbmcgYW4gdGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsIA0KMjU2TUIgUGkgQikgYW5kIHVwZ3JhZGVkIHRo YXQgdG8gQm9va3dvcm0gd2l0aG91dCBhbnkgcHJvYmxlbXMsIHVzaW5nIA0KaW5mbyBvbiBo dHRwczovL3BpbXlsaWZldXAuY29tL3Jhc3BiZXJyeS1waS1vcy1idWxsc2V5ZS10by1ib29r d29ybS8NCg0KVGhhdCByZXN1bHRlZCBpbiBhIFBpIDVCIHJ1bm5pbmcgQm9va3dvcm0gd2l0 aCBhIGZ1bGx5IHdvcmtpbmcgTWF0ZSANCmRlc2t0b3AsIG5vIFdheWxhbmQgY3J1ZCwgcnN5 c2xvZyBhY3RpdmUgYW5kIGFsbCB0aGUgb3RoZXIgDQpjdXN0b21pc2F0aW9ucyBJJ3ZlIG1h ZGUgb3ZlciB0aGUgbGFzdCAxMiB5ZWFycy4NCg0KLS0tZHJ1Y2sNCg==

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Hello druck!

Wednesday January 03 2024 21:17, you wrote to All:

@INTL 3:770/1 3:770/3
@REPLYADDR news@druck.org.uk
@REPLYTO 3:770/3.0 UUCP
@MSGID: <un4isp$3b8gn$1@dont-email.me> 2bba35bb
@REPLY: <vbWdnS0X77_3agn4nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@earthlink.com> 2694f141
@PID: SoupGate-Win32 v1.05 T24gMDMvMDEvMjAyNCAwNTo1OCwgNTZnLjExODMgd3JvdGU6DQo+ICDCoCBUaGUgV29ybS
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SEEN-BY: 1/120 18/0 25/0 21 123/0 25 126 180 200 755 3001 135/115
153/757 7715
SEEN-BY: 218/840 220/70 221/1 6 222/2 226/17 100 240/1120 250/0 1 3 4
5 6 7 8
SEEN-BY: 250/10 11 13 14 263/0 5 267/800 275/1000 299/6 301/1 113 812
310/31
SEEN-BY: 335/364 341/66 463/68 467/4 888 633/280 712/848 1321 770/1 3
100 330
SEEN-BY: 770/340 772/210 220 230 2320/105 3634/0 12 56 57 119 5001/100 5005/49
SEEN-BY: 5020/1042 4441 5030/49 5054/8 5058/104 5061/133 5075/128
5090/958
@PATH: 770/3 1 218/840 221/6 301/1 5020/1042 3634/12 250/1

Any chance you can discontinue this message format as for myself as one I cannot read it and it does not comply with the standards for any messaging
that I have found including fido and Usenet.


Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.8.4/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:25/0)

Vincent,

@INTL 3:770/1 3:770/3
@REPLYADDR news@druck.org.uk
@REPLYTO 3:770/3.0 UUCP
@MSGID: <un4isp$3b8gn$1@dont-email.me> 2bba35bb
@REPLY: <vbWdnS0X77_3agn4nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@earthlink.com> 2694f141
@PID: SoupGate-Win32 v1.05

That looks like nothing I've ever seen. My own (ancient!) OE6 shows the
raw message headers to be this :

- - - - - - -
...
Message-ID: <un4isp$3b8gn$1@dont-email.me>
...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
...
- - - - - - -
(legal, as specified in the RFC for newsgroup messages)

T24gMDMvMDEvMjAyNCAwNTo1OCwgNTZ....

That block is just the base-64 encodeded (as mentioned in the headers) text.
It looks like your message reader cut a few corners and doesn't understand (didn't implement?) this, quite legal, method of encoding a message.

IOW, it looks to be a "you", and not a "druck" problem ...

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

nospam.Vincent.Coen@f0.n25.z2.fidonet.org (Vincent Coen) writes:

Any chance you can discontinue this message format as for myself as one I cannot read it and it does not comply with the standards for any messaging that I have found including fido and Usenet.

The stuff with @ signs and SEEN-BY is something local to you, it’s not
in the original.

The base64 encoding is described in
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2045, referenced from https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5536 which describes Usenet article
formats.

The gateway software you’re using is literally from the last millenium (November 2000 release date); time for an update, perhaps.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 03/01/2024 10:22, Vincent Coen wrote:

Hello druck!

Wednesday January 03 2024 21:17, you wrote to All:

> @INTL 3:770/1 3:770/3
> @REPLYADDR news@druck.org.uk
> @REPLYTO 3:770/3.0 UUCP
> @MSGID: <un4isp$3b8gn$1@dont-email.me> 2bba35bb
> @REPLY: <vbWdnS0X77_3agn4nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@earthlink.com> 2694f141
> @PID: SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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> Aq d29ya3MqIC4uLiBidXQgSSByZWFsbHkgZG8gTk9UIGxpa2UgaXQuDQo+ICDCoCBDaGF
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> x5IHdvcmtpbmcgTWF0ZSANCmRlc2t0b3AsIG5vIFdheWxhbmQgY3J1ZCwgcnN5 c2xvZyB
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> b3ZlciB0aGUgbGFzdCAxMiB5ZWFycy4NCg0KLS0tZHJ1Y2sNCg==

> SEEN-BY: 1/120 18/0 25/0 21 123/0 25 126 180 200 755 3001 135/115
> 153/757 7715
> SEEN-BY: 218/840 220/70 221/1 6 222/2 226/17 100 240/1120 250/0 1 3 4
> 5 6 7 8
> SEEN-BY: 250/10 11 13 14 263/0 5 267/800 275/1000 299/6 301/1 113 812
> 310/31
> SEEN-BY: 335/364 341/66 463/68 467/4 888 633/280 712/848 1321 770/1 3
> 100 330
> SEEN-BY: 770/340 772/210 220 230 2320/105 3634/0 12 56 57 119 5001/100
> 5005/49
> SEEN-BY: 5020/1042 4441 5030/49 5054/8 5058/104 5061/133 5075/128
> 5090/958
> @PATH: 770/3 1 218/840 221/6 301/1 5020/1042 3634/12 250/1

Any chance you can discontinue this message format as for myself as one I cannot read it and it does not comply with the standards for any messaging that I have found including fido and Usenet.

Vincent

Gosh I didn't see that it was base 64 encoded!

No reason for that.

Thunderbird doesnt normally encode usenet that way...

--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 09:19:23 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Gosh I didn't see that it was base 64 encoded!

No reason for that.

Thunderbird doesnt normally encode usenet that way...

Perhaps it's to make the UTF-8 7 bit clean.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 04/01/2024 12:40, Andy Burns wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I think it needs Chris Elvidge and/or 56g.1183 to use 7-bit encoding
for their UTF-8 messages

The mail.strictly_mime=true setting also has an influence

But it seems Thunderbird isn't as well behaved as I thought, it is
easily tempted into using base64 encoding instead of 7bit encoding with quoted-printable characters :-(

Has anyone got any better settings?

According to those what know better than I Usenet and Mime base 64 are
now a standard.

So if you cant read it, update your user agent...


--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Vincent Coen wrote:

Hello druck!

> @INTL 3:770/1 3:770/3
> @REPLYADDR news@druck.org.uk
> @REPLYTO 3:770/3.0 UUCP
> @MSGID: <un4isp$3b8gn$1@dont-email.me> 2bba35bb
> @REPLY: <vbWdnS0X77_3agn4nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@earthlink.com> 2694f141
> @PID: SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
> SEEN-BY: 1/120 18/0 25/0 21 123/0 25 126 180 200 755 3001 135/115
> 153/757 7715
> SEEN-BY: 218/840 220/70 221/1 6 222/2 226/17 100 240/1120 250/0 1 3 4
> 5 6 7 8
> SEEN-BY: 250/10 11 13 14 263/0 5 267/800 275/1000 299/6 301/1 113 812
> 310/31
> SEEN-BY: 335/364 341/66 463/68 467/4 888 633/280 712/848 1321 770/1 3
> 100 330
> SEEN-BY: 770/340 772/210 220 230 2320/105 3634/0 12 56 57 119 5001/100
> 5005/49
> SEEN-BY: 5020/1042 4441 5030/49 5054/8 5058/104 5061/133 5075/128
> 5090/958
> @PATH: 770/3 1 218/840 221/6 301/1 5020/1042 3634/12 250/1

All of that comes from whatever usenet/fidonet gateway you're using

The base64 coding does come from druck's Thunderbird, but it's probably
not his fault, there's a longer chain of "blame" ...

The message from <56g.1183@ztq4.net> uses 8bit encoding and seems to
have needlessly changed spaces into sequences of 0xC3 0x82 0x20
possibly triggered by Chris Elvidge's message also using 8bit coding and including non US ASCII characters (e.g. a British pound sign £)

Any chance you can discontinue this message format as for myself as one I cannot read it and it does not comply with the standards for any messaging that I have found including fido and Usenet.

I think it needs Chris Elvidge and/or 56g.1183 to use 7-bit encoding for
their UTF-8 messages

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Andy Burns wrote:

I think it needs Chris Elvidge and/or 56g.1183 to use 7-bit encoding for their UTF-8 messages

The mail.strictly_mime=true setting also has an influence

But it seems Thunderbird isn't as well behaved as I thought, it is
easily tempted into using base64 encoding instead of 7bit encoding with quoted-printable characters :-(

Has anyone got any better settings?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

druck <news@druck.org.uk> writes:

So I abandoned that, and went back to it's predecessor Pi 4B, which
was running Bullseye 64 bit (hand upgraded from 32 bit, and prior to
that in place upgraded all the way from the very fist OS running an
the original 256MB Pi B)

What's "hand upgraded"? I have this Pi that I kinda would like to keep
running for a while yet but it has Ubuntu 20.04 LTS on it. Canonical
extended the support for 20.04 LTS until 2030 but not for the armhf architecture which I have. I've considered cross grading it to arm64 but
I'm not sure it's worth the trouble or if that would even work. And this
is a CM3+ so there's no SD card, only soldered eMMC for storage.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 04/01/2024 14:11, Anssi Saari wrote:

druck <news@druck.org.uk> writes:

So I abandoned that, and went back to it's predecessor Pi 4B, which
was running Bullseye 64 bit (hand upgraded from 32 bit, and prior to
that in place upgraded all the way from the very fist OS running an
the original 256MB Pi B)

What's "hand upgraded"? I have this Pi that I kinda would like to keep running for a while yet but it has Ubuntu 20.04 LTS on it. Canonical
extended the support for 20.04 LTS until 2030 but not for the armhf architecture which I have. I've considered cross grading it to arm64 but
I'm not sure it's worth the trouble or if that would even work. And this
is a CM3+ so there's no SD card, only soldered eMMC for storage.

A good question is why you would want to upgrade at all.
If you have used it for a specific task and it is still performing that
task well, what is the problem?

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 04/01/2024 12:40, Andy Burns wrote:

But it seems Thunderbird isn't as well behaved as I thought, it is
easily tempted into using base64 encoding instead of 7bit encoding with
quoted-printable characters :-(

Has anyone got any better settings?

According to those what know better than I Usenet and Mime base 64 are
now a standard.

There are standard ways to send posts written in HTML and with huge
binary attachments too, but I'm thankful that Usenet discussion
generally has remained as simple as possible thanks to most people
sensibly avoiding those options.

I'm guessing that Thunderbird's behaviour is inherited from its
behaviour with email. Email today is a perfect example of how bad
things can get by going the other way and stuffing every useless
non-feature possible into each message. The average size of text
emails that I receive has increased massively over the years, only
so that lots more processing has to be done to render them
(sometimes poorly) in plain text for me to read.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _# | Note: I won't see posts made from Google Groups |

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:

druck <news@druck.org.uk> writes:

So I abandoned that, and went back to it's predecessor Pi 4B, which
was running Bullseye 64 bit (hand upgraded from 32 bit, and prior to
that in place upgraded all the way from the very fist OS running an
the original 256MB Pi B)

What's "hand upgraded"? I have this Pi that I kinda would like to keep running for a while yet but it has Ubuntu 20.04 LTS on it. Canonical
extended the support for 20.04 LTS until 2030 but not for the armhf architecture which I have. I've considered cross grading it to arm64 but
I'm not sure it's worth the trouble or if that would even work. And this
is a CM3+ so there's no SD card, only soldered eMMC for storage.

These are about converting VPS systems from Ubuntu to Debian, but
the process ought to be the same except for any special driver
requirements for the RPis: https://gist.github.com/4abhinavjain/893ec13c651bee08088c8f4661998952 https://github.com/bohanyang/debi

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _# | Note: I won't see posts made from Google Groups |

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 04/01/2024 14:11, Anssi Saari wrote:

druck <news@druck.org.uk> writes:

So I abandoned that, and went back to it's predecessor Pi 4B, which
was running Bullseye 64 bit (hand upgraded from 32 bit, and prior to
that in place upgraded all the way from the very fist OS running an
the original 256MB Pi B)

What's "hand upgraded"? I have this Pi that I kinda would like to keep running for a while yet but it has Ubuntu 20.04 LTS on it. Canonical
extended the support for 20.04 LTS until 2030 but not for the armhf architecture which I have. I've considered cross grading it to arm64 but
I'm not sure it's worth the trouble or if that would even work. And this
is a CM3+ so there's no SD card, only soldered eMMC for storage.

I don't know if anyone has a working cross-grade for Raspbian then, so I created a new partition with a clean 64 bit Bullseye on it, installed
all the same optional packages as the 32 bit partition, then copied over
all /home, /opt, bits of /var and lastly looked at /etc. That was the
trickiest bit, machine-id and ssh/ssh_host* were copied across to
preserve the identity, but all the other files had to be diffed and
changes integrated so as to keep the legit configuration and to shed
some of the cruft from multiple previous OS releases.

---druck

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

druck <news@druck.org.uk> writes:

I don't know if anyone has a working cross-grade for Raspbian then,

I have done crossgrades with Debian (x86->amd64) and while it worked[1],
I can’t really recommend it unless you are very confident indeed. I’d expect a similar situation with Raspbian/RPi OS.

[1] meaning I have a working system that’s been continously upgraded
since the mid 1990s:

$ ls -l /etc/hostname
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6 Mar 24 1995 /etc/hostname
$ cat /etc/debian_version
12.4
$ uname -r
6.1.0-16-amd64

so I created a new partition with a clean 64 bit Bullseye on it,
installed all the same optional packages as the 32 bit partition, then
copied over all /home, /opt, bits of /var and lastly looked at
/etc. That was the trickiest bit, machine-id and ssh/ssh_host* were
copied across to preserve the identity, but all the other files had to
be diffed and changes integrated so as to keep the legit configuration
and to shed some of the cruft from multiple previous OS releases.

Makes me wonder how practical it would be to automate this: a tool which captured the configuration of one host (list of packages, configuration that’s been customized relative to installed versions, extra state in
/var, etc) and modified a second host to match. I suspect doing it
properly would be more work than is worthwhile (architecture transitions
just don’t happen very often) but that doesn’t always stop people l-)

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes:

The base64 coding does come from druck's Thunderbird, but it's
probably not his fault, there's a longer chain of "blame" ...

The message from <56g.1183@ztq4.net> uses 8bit encoding and seems to
have needlessly changed spaces into sequences of 0xC3 0x82 0x20
possibly triggered by Chris Elvidge's message also using 8bit coding
and including non US ASCII characters (e.g. a British pound sign £)

None of Chris’s message is quoted in David’s message, so I don’t see how that can be relevant.

I don’t see the C3... sequence you mention in 56g’s message:

# grep From: 34062
From: "56g.1183" <56g.1183@ztq4.net>
# hd 34062|grep c3
#

However David’s message does use U+00A0 (i.e. NO-BREAK SPACE, C2 A0 in UTF-8), as part of the quoting of 56g’s message:

# tail +27 34073|base64 -id|hd|head
00000000 4f 6e 20 30 33 2f 30 31 2f 32 30 32 34 20 30 35 |On 03/01/2024 05| 00000010 3a 35 38 2c 20 35 36 67 2e 31 31 38 33 20 77 72 |:58, 56g.1183 wr| 00000020 6f 74 65 3a 0d 0a 3e 20 20 c2 a0 20 54 68 65 20 |ote:..> .. The |
^^^^^
00000030 57 6f 72 6d 20 2a 77 6f 72 6b 73 2a 20 2e 2e 2e |Worm *works* ...|

I think that’s a quoting decision made by Thunderbird, perhaps triggered
by an internal trip through an HTML representation where the redundant
multiple spaces at the start of 56g’s lines need to be converted to
something else to avoid whitespace collapsing.

Thunderbird’s decision to use base64 is certainly not what I’d do (NNTP
is 8-bit clean so Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit would be perfectly
adequate) but it is in-spec and has been for many years.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) writes:

These are about converting VPS systems from Ubuntu to Debian, but
the process ought to be the same except for any special driver
requirements for the RPis: https://gist.github.com/4abhinavjain/893ec13c651bee08088c8f4661998952 https://github.com/bohanyang/debi

Wow, I've actually followed exactly that gist on my Oracle freebie
VPS. It's a good guide but not suitable for the old Pi. I'm not sure of
the other one. Anyways, I'm not looking to install Debian on this.

I did see a blog post here https://k1024.org/posts/2023/2023-10-31-raspberry-pi-upgrade-crossgrade/
about armhf to arm64 crossgrading which isn't really positive on the
process although he was apparently successful. Then again, he had
Raspberry PI OS and a Pi4 and a Zero 2 W, my CM3+ and Ubuntu might hit
other snags.

What I'm planning is either retire or replace the thing, I actually have
a cheap refurb mini-PC to take its place running Debian currently or
cross grade to amd64 so I would need no changes and have support until
2030 or maybe upgrade to Ubuntu 22.04 LTS. But I have until 2025 to
decide.

As it happens, during the Xmas break I got around to playing with my
RTL-SDR software radio and getting some weather data from my outdoor
wireless temperature/humidity sensor. Works fine but the rtl_433 package
on Ubuntu 20.04 is too old, I'd need a newer rtl_433 to easily support
the sensor I have. One point in favor of upgrading Ubuntu.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

druck <news@druck.org.uk> writes:

I don't know if anyone has a working cross-grade for Raspbian then, so
I created a new partition with a clean 64 bit Bullseye on it,
installed all the same optional packages as the 32 bit partition, then
copied over all /home, /opt, bits of /var and lastly looked at
/etc. That was the trickiest bit, machine-id and ssh/ssh_host* were
copied across to preserve the identity, but all the other files had to
be diffed and changes integrated so as to keep the legit configuration
and to shed some of the cruft from multiple previous OS releases.

That's the thing, isn't it? Either copy all the cruft over or spend
months in transition, going from wondering "didn't I have a script/config/whatever for this" to "oh right, it was on the old system,
time to copy that over too." BTDT...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 08/01/2024 09:50, Anssi Saari wrote:

druck <news@druck.org.uk> writes:

I don't know if anyone has a working cross-grade for Raspbian then, so
I created a new partition with a clean 64 bit Bullseye on it,
installed all the same optional packages as the 32 bit partition, then
copied over all /home, /opt, bits of /var and lastly looked at
/etc. That was the trickiest bit, machine-id and ssh/ssh_host* were
copied across to preserve the identity, but all the other files had to
be diffed and changes integrated so as to keep the legit configuration
and to shed some of the cruft from multiple previous OS releases.

That's the thing, isn't it? Either copy all the cruft over or spend
months in transition, going from wondering "didn't I have a script/config/whatever for this" to "oh right, it was on the old system,
time to copy that over too." BTDT...

No everything useful was copied over, but I spent some time looking at
/etc to weed out config for packages which are no longer installed. For
the stuff that is still installed the config files have often gained new options over time, and it's useful to add these in to my copies, so they
can be altered in future.

---druck

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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